Group work

[Annunziata]

Following on from the thread in AIBU.

None of my DC like group work, they prefer being on their own and see it as a bit of a necessary evil. DD2 (S2) really doesn't like it. She says (teenage bias probably included) that group work takes up 2/3 lessons a week in some classes, but occasionally more, such as this week in history. The others in her group aren't interested but skive off using the 'allocated roles.' Can she expect this to change next year? Is it a teacher issue or curriculum issue? Do secondary teachers really see benefits in group work?

Would be grateful for any input.

I teach in England but have to do groups/pairs as failure to do so would be frowned upon. Sorry!

I teach in England rather than Scotland, where I assume you are based. I use group work most lessons, but then I do teach drama. However, I have also run training sessions for other staff at my school about the benefits of group work, and I do think that there are a great many.

For a start, it encourages independence. OFSTED are very big on independence - by which I mean independent of the teacher, rather than students being independent of each other. In a group, students can use each other, rather than relying on the teacher, which OFSTED like as it shows students learning by themselves, rather than being lectured.

Then there are the obvious social skills arguments - students have to learn to work with a variety of others - very few jobs involve working on your own with absolutely no communication with anyone, and so it is vital that they learn about cooperative working.

Personally, I find that students enjoy it. Again, that might be because of the subject I teach. I start off pretty strict in Year 7 - never letting students choose their own groups and by Year 9, they are very good at working even with their friends, and staying focused.

Of course, the key is organisation, and whilst OFSTED want (in fact, in the new framework, they insist on it) to see students apparently working independently of the teacher, whilst the teacher hovers and observes but doesn't need to intervene, it takes a lot of effective planning, training (for want of a better word) and developing students' skills to get it right. In my own classroom, I use a variety of methods for organising groups - anything from completely random, chosen spontaneously, to carefully planned groups - sometimes by ability, sometimes deliberately mixed ability. Given that I teach an option subject, at KS4 groups are sometimes by ability - I would hope that a group of top level students would come up with something pretty impressive, and then I can support the lower ability groups more (doesn't always work, of course) and sometimes mixed, as working with higher ability students can encourage the lower ability students to develop confidence, and working with lower ability students forces the higher ability kids to consider the clarity of their work (often in drama the top level kids can get a bit lofty and lose track of the basics ) Tasks have to be very carefully planned, and very carefully monitored. I constantly make notes, sometimes video group work (particularly at KS4 and KS5) and so I am always aware of any inconsistencies in effort.

Group work can also work for things like evaluations and self-assessment. I do a lot of putting a group of kids in a room with a video camera and getting them to record a discussion - often they will come up with more pertinent points than if they were to write things down as individuals.

No matter how the groups are organised, IME, marking and assessment is always done on an individual basis. I would never give one grade for a whole group .

That's very long! Hope it helps.

Hi Annunziata - I'll post tomorrow if I may.

Have to get off to bed as it's getting late!

It is a key part of the new Curriculum for Excellence in Scotland. The focus has shifted away from a knowledge based curriculum to a skills based one. Most lessons should now involve partner/group tasks as well as active game based learning. This move has been ongoing for about 8 years now.

It is the reason there is such an enormous controversy about CfE.

Learning to be able to work with others is a really valuable skill.
that said, I used to hate having to do 'group projects' when I was at college, and people all had their own ways of doing or not doing things.I see having to do group work as something to be tolerated. 2 lessons out of 3 seems a lot though. I guess like most things, there should be a balance.

Group work is the pits, it's just a chance for socially less adept children to be bullied and excluded in lessons as well as at break.

"DD1 why aren't with your group,"
"because they don't fucking want to be stuck with me, Miss" of course she can't say this and gets sarky comments on her report when she really has tried.

DD1s lack of social skills are part and parcel of being dyslexic she can't suddenly become a compliant door mat prepared to do what the rest of the group want even if it's rubbish.
She doesn't pick up the subtle clues that tell you how you should act. She doesn't care that much about blending in. She just wants to do the work.

If a wise teacher puts her with an equally able motivated group she will thrive and learn.

Let her get left to work with a group who'd rather discus East Enders or stare into space and she'll be very unhappy.

As a recent mature student at uni "group work" including marked assessments which counted towards the final grade was surprisingly common. It caused endless friction and complaints at student/department meetings. We understood that is is a requirement for degrees as well. Basically in the end we all learnt to grin and bear it we did learn quickly to either organise ourselves into groups of like minded people or even refuse to work with some if they had a reputation for poor cooperation.

I agree with the ideals of learning to work with people to prepare you for the world of work. But the two are not really comparable. In the workplace most people pull their finger out, or at least don't make personal comments on your appearance/desire to complete the task.

In high school group work can be the work of the devil.

Thanks for all the replies!

DrSeuss it's the amount of group work that's the biggest problem.

Eviltwins, thanks for the explanation. Drama must be quite active though. Her science classes are full of group experiments and things which she does enjoy. It's mostly social sciences and languages which seems to be less productive. The groups are always the same and mixed ability. She says that she could come up with a much higher standard of work on her own.

Stargirl1701, Is it unlikely to change then? She has hardly any notes compared to my older DC, everything seems to be done via posters or games. Thankfully she won't sit the new exams.

Startail, they sound very similar! She doesn't want to correct the others when they make mistakes, and when she writes and someone else presents she says they don't do it properly, which she thinks will look bad on her.

happygardening, they don't really have any choice over who they can work with!

mockingjay, exactly! The ideal sounds brilliant. The reality doesn't.

I admit I might be a bit biased since I had a condescending teacher tell me (when I was at high school) that it was good for me to learn about cooperation with all kinds of people.

I wanted to shout at her that, not being an idiot, I knew all about cooperation. And that if one party was actively determined not to cooperate, you had to cut your losses and move on! Aaaargh, annoyed myself again thinking about her patronising tone!

If she is in the state sector then no I can't see things changing. Teachers are being monitored and assessed on using teaching methods such as co-operative learning. 'Chalk and talk' is becoming quite frowned upon by SMTs.

The private sector are not following this path.

DD says groupwork is OK.

FWIW, I was never all that keen on groupwork (in Primary school - don't remember it at all at Secondary) and preferred to work at my own rate, but now I love working as part of a team[sonfused]

stargirl - it's not SMTs that frown on "chalk and talk", it's OFSTED. Mind you, chalk and talk must be the absolute dullest way to spend an hour if you're a modern teenager.

I agree EvilTwins - HMIE (the equivalent of OFSTED) and Education Scotland are not too keen on the old-fashoined chalk and talk approach.

It does have it's place sometimes though - but pupils prefer more active engagement.

Co-operative learning is a good tool if used appropriately and our trainers told us that we shouldn't expect to be using it all the time - it takes a lot of prep work and careful structuring to include all the required elements and "inter-dependencies".
I'd only use it maybe once a week, if that, and find it useful when the pupils need to learn something with a lot of elements and information- I'd then plan a lesson so that each team member had to research a different section and share their info with the group to complete a table, for example, that they all need.

I'm also careful about how I structure mixed ability groups and include high, mid and low ability.

It is interesting how much the lower academic ability will contribute - often they work harder than the mid to high ability. If you give clear and specific instructions on what they need to find out then there should not be a problem.

And if anyone isn't contributing they get chivvied by me.

We were thinking of sending her private if she had to do the new exams. She just doesn't get on well with the new curriculum, but thankfully our local council has delayed the exams.

She likes chalk and talk, especially because her teachers are all young and hip and can make power points and use videos too. Group work is definitely being used more than once a week though. DH pointed out that it is quite close to the end of term so things are starting to relax. Hopefully that's a factor.

That's really interesting about the different abilities. She is a high achiever in English/ history/ modern languages, but she says it feels like she is showing off if she has to work in a group, and if she tries to get it done the way she wants to be everyone will let her take over. I'm actually beginning to think she's part of the problem

No OFSTED in Scotland. HMIe inspect schools. The last inspection I had was very collegiate - no pressure at all. Very focused on the experience of the child.

We did really well except we failed on the health promotion - our breadsticks at the after school clubs had too much saturated fat

She feels like she's showing off if she works in a group... how Scottish of her

I'm Scottish but I teach in England. I had a training session the other day that gave me pause for thought: we had to discuss and work in groups and it was all very touchy-feely - and I HATED it. I had forgotten how much I despise being made to do these things. I thought about the kids in my classes and I felt bad for making them do what I wouldn't choose to myself.

Your poor daughter. I feel her pain.

Annunziata - actually, I am in favour of the new exams (in my subject anyway) because they are more like the old "O" grade and Higher Grade that were far more rigorous. I'm glad to see the changes.

Standard Grades and Highers have dumbed down considerably since I was at school. That is a fact.

The new Higher in my subject has elements of Advanced Higher and the Nat 5 is more like the Higher. So rigour may be re-appearing, thank goodness.

If your DD is not sitting the new exams will she be sitting GCSE/A level instead if you go private?

Take care if so because the English system is under review too - they have a lot of internal assessment and there are different providers of A level exams who are not all regarded equally from what I understand.

At least with the SQA everyone sits the same exam so it's a level playing field.

I want to know what Loreen said

I can understand that freerrangeeggs! It's good to know that teachers struggle with group work too though.

Salmotrutta that's really interesting- I've spoken to a few teachers and they are quite against them. It was the uncertainty more than anything that was making us consider a private school which did GCSEs etc.

Same name has been deleted off other threads too - I don't think it could have been personal to this thread.

Ach well then! Thanks.