Another thread about tutoring

[PooshTun]

Elsewhere there is a rehash of the usual tutoring versus no tutoring arguments.

There are those who argue that schools should not select kids based on a 11+ since it favours kids that are tutored as opposed to kids who have natural ability. As the saying goes, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions ie how would you fix the selection process?

Please, if you want to simply ban selective schools then start your own thread. I am interested in ideas from parents who are in favour of grammar schools but think that there should be a better way of allocating places.

I agree that the existing process is unfair but in the absence of a machine that measures true intellence or a test that you can't possibly be tutored for I don't see what can be done to make the whole selection process fairer.

exotic - My boss from many years ago made the same point ie if the GS/indie parents had no choice but to place their DCs in comps then those parents will fight to improve those schools.

But when it came to walking the walk he maxed out his income and bought a very modest house in a upper middle-class catchment which was two towns over where we worked. He could have bought a large detached with a large garden next to me for the same money but the area was a bit too 'diversified' for his taste :)

I find it funny when parents in comps in well off afluent areas talk the talk. It's sooo easy when you don't have to walk the walk.

How though? How am I meant to fight to improve the school? What do you think parents are actually going to be able to do?

If you buy into a middle class area where people are highly ambitious for their DCs you will have a good school. If it isn't a good school they won't send them. I wouldn't send mine to a failing comprehensive. On the odd occasion that mine had lessons disrupted I was on the phone complaining. It was the very odd occasion and it was sorted. If most of the DCs were disaffected and didn't want to learn it would have been a useless exercise.

"Well, my ds is going to a high school that has what mumsnet would consider appalling results, and I fully expect him to be in the tiny minority that get fantastic GCSEs!

What do you mean "failing", SeaHouses?

I said that it wasn't fair,Pooshtun- my first priority for a house was the school catchment area. It could be my dream house but I wouldn't touch it if the school was wrong.

If the majority are able students who do well they pull the rest up. A few can't pull up the rest.

We are in a middle class area. The children are above average in attainment on entering the school. FSM, english as a second language and SEN are below average.

Sending a child to another school doesn't sort the school out! If what you mean by parent's not putting up with it is that they send their kids elsewhere, that doesn't improve the education system. They may as well send them to independent schools.

Schools can fail very high ability children. Poor teaching, and poor management of schools, can impede learning big time.

Well, obviously, bonsoir! Regardless of type, intake or sector.

Sending them to independant schools is outside most people's pocket. Whereas I would love to improve the education system I am not prepared to sacrifice my DCs. I want the best for them. I don't go by Ofsted or league tables, I visit the school on a normal working day, ask lots of questions, look at the pupils and above all look at the end result, the 6th formers- do I want my DC to turn out like that? Where do they go after the school?
I don't think grammar schools the best- except for a very small minority of pupils.

I'm not objecting to you sending your child to a particular type of school, EF. I just think that most parents will do the same as you, and send their children to the best school they can afford to buy a house in the catchment area of. So getting rid of schools that select by faith, ability or wealth will not change the education system. There will still be 'good schools' and 'bad schools' based on intake and there will still be schools with above average intakes who end up failing due to the structure of the school, with little the parents can do about it.

What do you mean when you say your school is "failing", SeaHouses?

Independent schools that fail to deliver consistently close.

Eventually.

It failed its Ofsted inspection, Seeker.

Bonsoir, could we go back briefly to where you "I think that you have absolutely no clue what happens to able children in comprehensive schools, seeker. You posted a complete non-sequitur!" and tell me what you meant?

Failed as in special measures?

That clever children in comprehensive schools frequently fail to fulfil their potential in any shape of form because they are so frustrated/bored/never stretched - they turn off school and never reach the end of the road. This is a real political issue in France (with a comprehensive education system to 15).

Sorry, you're not making sense. And you're talking about the French system, which is different to the UK one.

Notice to improve. From what I can tell, it is more likely it will go into special measures than sort out the problems. The problems seem to be getting worse, but I probably shouldn't describe exactly how they are getting worse on a public website.

The French system is a very good example of a fully comprehensive system (even the private schools follow the French NC and there is no streaming whatsoever). I'm just pointing out, seeker, what happens in a fully comprehensive system to clever children. It fails them, very often.

Ok. But I am an experienced school governor- if you think there's anything I might be able to help you with or find out for you please pm me!

"I'm just pointing out, seeker, what happens in a fully comprehensive system to clever children. It fails them, very often."

Not in my experience. Which is as valid as yours. In my experience any type of school could possibly fail a child. Or not fail them. I know lots of people. who have not been failed by the comprehensive system. And people who have been failed by the independent system. I do not because of this say that the independent system fails children. That would be silly.

I can't think of a child that I know, personally, who has been failed by a comprehensive- they have all done well.
There are actually bad private schools! People complain about them on MN and you think ' why are you paying for it?'

exotic - that is a bit like me that saying none of my white upper income friends have been hassled by the police. Therefore all those (black) people are exaggerating the problem :)

I use to live in SE London and the state schools there were crap. The experiences of people living there are obviously different from yours.