Another thread about tutoring

[PooshTun]

Elsewhere there is a rehash of the usual tutoring versus no tutoring arguments.

There are those who argue that schools should not select kids based on a 11+ since it favours kids that are tutored as opposed to kids who have natural ability. As the saying goes, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions ie how would you fix the selection process?

Please, if you want to simply ban selective schools then start your own thread. I am interested in ideas from parents who are in favour of grammar schools but think that there should be a better way of allocating places.

I agree that the existing process is unfair but in the absence of a machine that measures true intellence or a test that you can't possibly be tutored for I don't see what can be done to make the whole selection process fairer.

@exotic I too went to Cambridge to read maths from a comp. I know this can and does happen all the time. I was incredibly bored for most of my time at school though. Especially at the age DD1 is now. I'm glad DD1 is rather less bored. I'm also glad she is at a school where being a dyspraxic geeky type is the norm rather than the exception. She is having a much easier time of it than I did as well as a more interesting time.

From their comprehensive mine, collectively went to Canada, Russia,Iceland, a French exchange with a private school in south of France, not to mention trips across the channel, geography field trips and they all did outdoor adventure weeks at least once. we turned down New York, Peru and China.
They were not too hot on sport, which was a shame, but the other comprehensive in town (boys only)did the type of sports tours that you are mentioning.

@exotic I reckon I know why you are all in favour of catchment area comps if your DCs go to the sort of comp that can lay on those sorts of trips without the parents rioting.

They were not bored. The DC who was very gifted at maths was working with 6th form in year 9. Mine then left so I don't know what happened once he had the A'level but he certainly wasn't kicking his heels for a few years! I knew the DC when he was in year 5 and he was already going to the comprehensive once a week for a master class. His parents did consider moving for a grammar school but they were very dismissive as in 'all our boys are clever' - they opted to stay for the comprehensive who were willing to treat him as a special case.

I have explained early on that it also not fair to do it by house. I was in a grammar school city. We moved to get out of it. We looked for the schools and then we looked for the house. As I have explained, time without number, there are no grammar schools, unless they go privately they are all the comprehensive school. They have high achieving parents who expect the best for their DCs. My idea was that if I wasn't paying for education or tutors they could have the extras, if possible and if they wished. Mine would tell you that they didn't have much compared to others! (true in many cases).
Maybe I have got a chip on my shoulder-I don't really care as it only shows up on here- but I was going to get my DCs a good state education and not in a school where the best talent is missing.

exotic - You keep going on about how great your kids are doing at their comp and how they have such great school trips.

The above beggars the question - if it is so great then why do you sooo against GSs?

If your Dd is bored at school go in and ask them what they are going to do about it! They would in my area.

I get do bored with the question. It is only so good because there are no grammar schools. If they creamed off the best they wouldn't be the same. People would put up with their DC being bored, as Metabilis seems to be doing- they wouldn't go in and challenge it.

As I have clearly explained above she is not bored at school mainly because they accelerate the children to ensure this doesn't happen. If she was at the comp she would be bored because they do not accelerate the children. I mentioned that I was cripplingly bored at my comp and yes my parents did mention it to the staff but to be fair, the staff knew, however without moving me out of year, which was frowned upon, there was little else they could do.

@exotic Can you not read? I have said several times now that my DD1 is NOT bored, but that she would be if she was at the local comp. Please stop misrepresenting what I have said, and writing inaccurate things about my DD.

This is really very annoying. I know you have an agenda you are desperate to push but making things up is not helping your case in any way, and to be honest I'm now bored of reading your posts.

Sorry- I thought she was bored- my mistake.
I can't see that those in the grammar would be bored if they had sets below them- the teaching wouldn't change for the top sets.

I do wish people would just be honest. In a grammar school, children mix with "people like us". In a comprehensive they would have to mix with "people like us" AND the other 77%. And people find that scary.

I realise that you are advocating a different system, metabilis, and as I have said repeatedly, it would be possible to have q near as dammit comprehensive as well. Which might be a way to appease the "clever children must be kept separate" brigade while providing a decent education for everyone else. But the 77/23 split is divisive, unfair and only advantages the already advantaged.

The unfairness shows up in that people pay out school fees to get a grammar school. They are then happy that they are getting a 1st class education for free. If they don't get a place they revert to plan B and carry on with school fees, they don't go for the place offered by the state. Does this not tell you something?

exotic - if a kid is doing well or badly at his secondary modern then what does it matter if across town there is a bunch of GS kids beavering away?

seeker asked why GS parents think that being in the same building as less academic kids will drag down their kids. Let me flip it around and ask why you think that it will pull up the less academic kids if the GS kids were to be in the same building?

What is that? Some kids develop late and in a comp system kids can move up? I was at a comp in the top set. The kids there at 11 were the same ones at 16. Not many late developers in my year comp eh?

Also, you make a big deal about how you stuck to your principles and moved out of a GS area. However, elsewhere you posted that your DC isn't academic and wouldn't have suited a GS. So, which one is it. Did you move because of principle or because you didn't think DS would get into the GS?

He was 7 months old at the time - a little too early to tell! The older one was 8yrs and quite probably a pass. We hadn't even decided to have a third!
My unacademic one had very academic friends - so yes it would have made a big difference if they were all beavering away on the other side of town.

@seeker that is just not true. I am not 'people like us' for a start. You are the one who is being dishonest since despite having had it pointed out to you many times that the Kent model is not the only model in place in the UK and in fact is in a minority when considering areas with grammar schools rather than grammar school areas, you persist in claiming that it's 23/77 or nothing. And that is clearly not the case. If I lived in Kent I'd want to change the system too, although not in the way you want to change it.

@exotic AFAIA this is not what happens with the majority of kids at my DDs school, although it does happen to a certain extent. Most of the young people there are from state schools though.

So you want to change the education system so that your son can be at the same school as his mates?

Well, its as good a reason as the other ones I guess.

I think it an excellent reason- tell me one good reason to separate them at 11yrs.
I apologise if I have lost the thread of this argument- I am not going to trawl back- but it appears to me that you have opted out altogether PooshTun so that the 11+ plus isn't relevant and yet you are insisting that the rest of us should put up with whatever the state wants to give us and making out that my DS wanting to stay with his friends is trivial. I also want my DCs at the same school- again trivial I expect- but I want one lot of teacher training days, uniform to hand down, one lot of letters, one way of doing things, one lot of teachers to get to know, shared lifts etc. Quite important when you are busy working.

Much simpler because I have all boys but I don't like single sex schools either and grammar schools tend to be single sex.

@exotic Well, I want all my children to get educations appropriate to their needs. Which AFAIC trumps your desire for administrative simplicity. From your posts it sounds like you no longer even have kids at school so it seems the issue is as irrelevant to you as it is to the OP. Who does have younger DCs I think so who may be affected by the issue in the future.

@exotic there are plenty of mixed grammar schools and single sex comps. DD1 goes to a mixed GS. I went to a single sex comp.

Back to the original question of is there a fairer system of selection then I think the answer is to look to the Netherlands (no. 9 in the world education rankings).
They split all children into three levels of education at age 12 based on a mixture of exam, school assessment and parent discussion. However the system allows for movement between schools. All boarder line children are allocated an orientation year at the end of which they can be moved if the school choice is wrong for them. Also children graduating from a lower level school can join the final 2 years of the next level up to continue their education which allows late developers to access higher education.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands
It is quite confusing to an outsider but seems to work really well.

I did say 'tend'-of course there are mixed grammar schools. My town has 2 mixed comprehensives and 2 single sex ones.
I don't see why the fact that my youngest has now left school makes my views any less valid.
Well done Suffolkgirl for getting back on track- sounds excellent. The problem with 11+ separates the 'sheep from the goats' but it is hopeless for the ones in the middle and the line is drawn between 2DCs of equal ability.

exotic - I find it 'funny' that you question my right to comment on the issue of the 11+ because my DCs are at indies. You then get uppity with Meta for questioning why someone like you, who doesn't have any DCs of 11+ age, is commenting on the issue of the 11+.

You can't have it both ways.

And no, I do not think that its trivial to want all your DCs in one school. No, I do not think its trivial to want your DC to be at same school as his mates.

But your position is that people shouldn't have the right to chose a GS education for their children. Why? Because it makes your life a pain. Now, THAT is trivial.