Another thread about tutoring

[PooshTun]

Elsewhere there is a rehash of the usual tutoring versus no tutoring arguments.

There are those who argue that schools should not select kids based on a 11+ since it favours kids that are tutored as opposed to kids who have natural ability. As the saying goes, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions ie how would you fix the selection process?

Please, if you want to simply ban selective schools then start your own thread. I am interested in ideas from parents who are in favour of grammar schools but think that there should be a better way of allocating places.

I agree that the existing process is unfair but in the absence of a machine that measures true intellence or a test that you can't possibly be tutored for I don't see what can be done to make the whole selection process fairer.

an amazing mix of Daily Mail views and urban myths on here! The old "state schools don't allow competition" one- lovely to see that old friend. Oh, and there's "state schools aren't interested in clever children". And dear old non competitive sports days. Amazing that one's survived since the 70s..............

Oh and this one is a raving lefty also:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551714/David-Willetts-speech-on-grammar-schools.html

Oh no, can't rely on this either, too many statistics...

Shame this resulted in him losing his portfolio before the election and we got Gove instead ....

Seeker... Non-competitive sport days are fact at some schools. My children's old school had non-competitive sport days. It was like watching a PE lesson or children's party- lots of team games/taking turn games rather than running races wrc.

So much more fun to watch the same few children winning everything and everyone else scrambling along in their wake, isn't it? Being last in everything so character building.......

@seeker

Your opinions are a mass of contradictions. You are against competitive school sports because it undermines the confidence of kids that never win or make the team BUT you are in favour of merging GSs with comps which means that some comp kids chance of getting into the top set will be reduced if nor removed.

Going back to sports, many of DC's mates have received professional coaching in tennis, golf, gymnastics, hockey etc. What do you think will happen to the make up of the various sports if your dream ever come true?

Interestingly, given the accusation that comprehensives teach to the average, it's actually the average who have been identified as the key target group at my school. Our high attainers on entry do very well. Our low attainers do exceptionally well. Our middle attainers do not perform as well.

I wonder if we are unusual. I'd quite like to see the stats.

Fallen - The bright kids have a capacity to improve further with good teaching. The previously under achieving kids will also improve with good teaching. However, if you are average then by definition you are average IYSWIM.

Poosh, In my (residual super-selective grammars) area, way over 50% of the grammar school entry comes from private primaries.

Basically, there are a couple of 'classic' prep schools which feed into their respective secondaries, but then a whole raft of private primaries which finish at 11 and whose raison d'etre is to cram for grammar school entry from the age of 3 or 4 to 11.

So a rule which said that the grammar schools had to favlour children who had been wholly state educated genuinely would, locally, free up far more places for state primary school pupils.

teacher - where I am a lot of the parents are quite well off so the prep to main school route is quite standard. Hence my comments.

I have friends in London who are doing ok but aren't rich. Many max out their income to send DC to prep so that they can be tutored for the (free) grammar's entrance. Cheaper to pay for private prep than private secondary.

I suspect that this is why some areas have more prep school boys going into GS compared to other areas.

People seem to have been making a lot of assumptions about me while I was out at work!
My parents did not fail me! The said 'do your best'- when I failed they looked into private education but couldn't afford it because I had 2 younger siblings who might have needed the same. They then said 'never mind you can do x,y and z - which is what I did.
My friends who failed were all very intelligent and did really well too.
I don't have a chip- it all turned out well.
It doesn't stop me wanting to give all DCs equal opportunities. I don't think that selection at the tender age of 11years is a good idea. They need to be able to move up and down or have provision for the DC who is brilliant at Maths but poor in English etc.
I think that we would get a brilliant education system if it was devised by someone who didn't know what place in society they would be born into or how intelligent they were going to be!
I wonder how keen on 11+ people would be if they had 4 children who failed it? Or one twin who passes and one who doesn't (happened to a friend of mine).

exotic - When you post stuff like how, at the age of 11, you felt like you've been thrown onto the scrap heap people are going to draw conclusions.

You wondered what people will think about the 11+ if THEIR kids failed. Why do you need to wonder? YOU failed and you subsequently became resentful of those who kids have the opportunities that you felt was denied you.

Um, I'm not sure what you mean. I am talking about progress. All our students make progress. At the higher and lower end they make better than national average progress. In the middle, they don't. Obviously they remain closer to the 'average' for our cohort, but actually, it skews our distribution a bit.

Or are you saying that middle attainers have less capacity to progress than high or low attainers? Because I disagree with that.

Sports wise I am 'average'. You can give me a world class coach and it won't make much difference to my performance.

BIL is a county class squash player. A world class coach would allow BIL to raise his game dramatically.

DS is sporty but he has never played golf or tennis. He is now receiving coaching from his school and as a result is catching up with his prep school friends who have been playing for over a year.

I hope that my analogy is crystal clear :)

It was how I felt at 11yrs. I knew that I was going to go there at 16yrs- life would have been simpler to have gone from the start.
I really don't think that people are going to say 'whoopee - we have selective education I am thrilled that my DC was not selected!' - or why are they paying thousands on school fees or lesser amounts on tutors to get a place. Why not be laid back and simply say, it doesn't matter you can get there in the end?

Your analogy is clear but not relevant to progress in school, which is what I was talking about.

I think that most people would be happy with 11+ if their DC passed and would be happier with comprehensive if they failed. I think that most people would struggle with an identical twin of similar ability on either side of the divide. I think that most people would say that the twin who passed had the better opportunities.

Fallen - the subtle difference escapes me :) but never mind.

It is only hindsight that I can look back and actually see the advantages. It has helped that my education has been different and that it shows my drive and determination. It didn't feel like that at the time, it wasn't easy as a teenager having the upheaval of 3 schools and new friends. I wouldn't wish it on my DCs and am pleased they just went through from yr 7 to yr13 in the same school.

"@seeker

Your opinions are a mass of contradictions. You are against competitive school sports because it undermines the confidence of kids that never win or make the team BUT you are in favour of merging GSs with comps which means that some comp kids chance of getting into the top set will be reduced if nor removed.

Going back to sports, many of DC's mates have received professional coaching in tennis, golf, gymnastics, hockey etc. What do you think will happen to the make up of the various sports if your dream ever come true?"

I' not in favour of merging grammar schools with comprehensives. I am in favour of merging grammar schools with high schools to create comprehensive schools. Not sure how this will reduce comprehensive children's chances of getting intonthe top set.

And I am not against competitive school sports. I just think that they should not be the only sort of sport available. My own ds is an incredibly competitive and pretty successful sportsman ( yes, in a state primary school!) but not everyone in his year feel the same way. I don't think th is anything character forming in being last all the time.

@exotic as I have said several times, but you have chosen to ignore, I have one DC at a SS GS and one at a comp and I think both children are in the right place and achieving an appropriate education for their abilities.

If it is a true comprehensive with a good 6th form then I have no problem with it, I would be quite happy to have one at both.
If it is like Reading where they come from a wide area and you don't get more than about 4 DCs a primary school getting a place, if that, and some of the brightest DCs not even bothering to take the exam because the comps are so good, that is fine. If they are all taking it and there are no true comps then I am not happy- which is why I moved.

Metabilis- I notice you don't have one at a secondary modern!

Basically I am very fussy about the schools I choose. If the non grammar schools ( for want of something to call them) in a grammar school area were excellent schools then I wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately in the area that I moved from they came under 'over my dead body' description and I had started to look at private schools when DS was 7yrs, but thenI just moved and it solved the problem.

The GS gets significantly better results than the two grammars in Reading. The comp my DS attends gets significantly better results than all the comps in Reading at GCSE (actually the comps in Reading don't get great results according to the BBC website) - it doesn't have a sixth form though, none of the schools in the city do. There is a reasonably well thought of sixth form college although most of the kids from my DSs school actually go to a comp outside the city for sixth form as its closer than the college. It wouldn't be for us though, so I don't know what we will do when the time comes - at the moment he is in year 7.

But you still don't seem to grasp that it is perfectly possible for parents with children at both types of school to believe that selective education is a good idea for some children. We do not all believe that if they aren't suited to a GS education, our DCs are failures. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if I couldn't accept that my individual DCs have individual needs. If a parent makes a child feel like a failure or allows a child to wrongly feel they are a failure then it is in fact tha parent who is the failure, not the child.

@seeker how could I have a child at a secondary modern when I don't live in Kent or Bucks?