Advice wanted on learning French - what is 'normal'?

[breadandbutterfly]

My dd is just coming to the end of year 7 at her semi-selective school and is generally doing very well - she has exams this week and I've been helping her do some revision. All fine. Except French. I started testing her and discovered she had not the faintest idea of any grammar - could not manage any parts of etre and avoir except occasionally by luck, had a vague understanding of noun-adjective agreement but not always applied, seemed to have covered only greetings, basic family, basic adjectives, basic describing one's house and classroom, and a tiny bit of hobbies. That's it. in 5 lessons I think per week. Her teacher apparently speaks lots of English in the classroom, her exercise book (v empty) has loads of unmarked errors and lots of stuff in English. Plus my dd's accent is abominable - way worse than mine (which is saying something) - but apparently they are often introduced to French words in written form before spoken form - something that I, as an EFL teacher would never, ever do as it encourages students to read them in their own accents.

But am I just being fussy? Are my expectations based on my own excellent French education 25 years ago for O Level. Have times changed? Do they just not learn any grammar? Is English routinely used in the classroom? Or should I be complaining?

Unlike nearly all the rest of the class my dd did no French at primary school so this is all new to her - obviously makes it harder.

Anyone?

I too was shocked and saddened at the lack of ability to do something really basic in another language (things like going into a shop or cafe and asking for something) by various relatives who have come out with As and A*s at GCSE. Myds is taking French at the moment and his knowledge of the language / his ability to speak it is appalling (and I speak as someone who found languages hard and was relieved to get a 'C' in my O-level, but my French is FAR better than his, and mine is very, very, very rusty, hardly having been used for the last 30 years). Fortunately dd1 seems to have a far better teacher and, in Yr7 was doing the same things he was doing in Yr10, so it seems not all schools are having their standards driven down in order to squeeze as many GCSE passes through for the League Tables.

I have in the past started several and participated in numerous threads like this.

Like BackforGood, I have not used French for 30 years, but I sound like a native compared with ds! His French is awful . He does these "controlled assessments" where you have to learn a passage you've written off by heart and then regurgitate it in the classroom. It teaches a person nothing! We had to learn strings of vocabulary every week and learn verbs. Now they do this sort of what I describe as "holiday French" which they learn in the dreaded bite size units.

In spite of being very rusty, I have had to intervene and do French with ds myself. I don't understand what's happened with MFL teaching.

My ds, and my sister's dds were stunned when we told them we went into the speaking part of our O-levels not having a clue what we were going to be asked about - that it was the start of a conversation, not a reciting of a learnt monolgue!
I'm not posting here to knock GCSEs - our dcs have to do the best they can with the system they are in, but i feel very sad that they can study a language for 5 years and have absolutely no ability to hold a fairly basic conversation in the language . Just seems a waste of everyone's time.

GCSE used to involve 2 role play in the speaking exam, which was great for the children who just wanted a bit of holiday French. So it was 'in a café'; at a hotel; visiting a doctor etc. Then it was reduced to 1 role play and was much more along the lines of 'You are talking to your French friend about school ...', which was ridiculous as school was one of the topics in the conversation anyway, so they ended up saying stuff that they would say later in the exam as well.

So there is no 'holiday French' in the exam now. As a PP said, it's just topics like 'the environment' or 'problems of young people' (who if you believe the GCSE textbooks appear to all have problems with anorexia, smoking, alcohol and substance abuse!) Actually I would rather they learned 'holiday French' - at least they would cope in France on holiday! There really aren't many opportunities for a 16 year old to chat in a foreign language about the dangers of drugs.

And rote learning verbs is much better if you sing them to The Mexican Hat Dance!! Some of my year 9s actually ask to do that. And those that don't like singing can join in with chanting them, so everybody's happy!

Regarding Galore Park, DS1 had done book 1 and most of book 2 when he had a go at the 2011 higher listening and reading papers some time before Christmas. He just managed an A on the listening and got an A* on the reading. (He'd done some work from the Edexcel book too.) So they do prepare them well (although to be fair, he has taken to languages like a duck to water!!) All I need now is to find a school/college that will take him as a private candidate!

Oh and the latest from OFSTED appears to be that teachers should only talk/lead for 20% of the lesson (so 12/60 mins), even in languages where we are modelling pronunciation/intonation! So it can only get worse.

Tinuviel - and others - could you answer my query as to whether it is now standard practice to talk in English in th MFL classroom? Whether the teacher explains/translates stuff in English for the upils? In my French classes, it was all done in French - and certainly, as an EFL teacher, I teach complete beginners - many of whose languages I do not speak - entirely in English.

Surely it cannot be standard practice to translate/explain so much in learners' native languages?

When I started teaching, 'target language' was very popular and the current thinking at the time. However, some of the issues were that children were not really being taught grammar as they couldn't understand explanations of it in the target language (and it was not 'fashionable') and children were very reluctant to speak it. So it has gradually reduced. We still encourage them to speak in the target language by introducing language orally; doing plenty of pairwork, surveys etc and will model correct pronunciation/intonation etc but use English for explanations of linguistic stuff.

Clearly when teaching EFL (if you're doing it in the UK), you have to teach in English as students will not have another language in common. The other issue with EFL is that they are hearing English spoken around them in their daily life as well, which English children doing 2-3 hours a week at school of MFL are not.

When I learned languages at school, we were taught in English for most of the time (I had one German teacher one lesson a week who did and I picked up quite a few things incorrectly for a while, which were only clarified by my other teacher who did use English).

Target language/direct method is one of those things that comes in and out of favour. I'm not convinced that it is as effective as some would like us to think and having used both methods (although few teachers spoke 100% target language), I prefer to give explanations in a language that my pupils already understand and use target language specifically for speaking work, especially as parts of the listening/reading exams have to be answered in English, so they need to be able to transfer information between the languages anyway.

Thanks, Tinuviel, v interesting.

What bits of the reading or listening exams have to be answered in English?!

Slightly horrified, as an EFL examiner...

BTW, not quite true that EFL students " are hearing English spoken around them in their daily life as well" - most live abroad - you're confusing it with ESOL.

I do think that the English Bacc should lead to an improvement in MFL teaching - as it becomes important for secondaries to direct resources to it.

The syllabus is dire IMO and the teaching at DD's school is not good. I am having to teach DD her GCSE French myself. It's an hour a week of agony. We have verb tables and conjugate a couple of verbs a week, a bit of reading in French and we work through those awful topics they give you. It really is the only way forward.

At present we are engaged in preparing a talk on a set topic. What DD has to do in a fortnight's time is preprepare a speech and learn it. This is what passes for discussion. We are doing this talk on leisure pursuits and holidays.

I am not a good teacher. I am doing it faute de mieux as there seem to be no local tutors. DD is if anything a worse pupil than I am a teacher. A MFL is compulsory at her school and this does seem to be the only way she is going to get anything less than a blot on her GCSE grades for French.

It's usually at the end of the higher listening/reading and is usually the most difficult question. They hear/read a longer passage in the foreign language and have to answer 4 questions in English. I think this is particularly challenging in the listening as they have to listen to FL/read questions in English/work out which bits in the FL are relevant/work out what they mean in English and write them down. They hear the passage twice but there isn't much of a gap between to get stuff written down in between. Then there is another very similar question (so 8 marks out of 40 in total). It often involves inferring meaning as well, so picking up on overall opinions from bits of information mentioned. Last year, the teacher invigilating, (who is French) actually admitted that she needed to hear it a 2nd time to get all the answers.

For DS1 this is a particular challenge as although he isn't dyspraxic (apparently), he is on less than the 1st centile for handwriting speed/neatness and he has huge issues with multi-tasking/working memory! It wouldn't actually matter if he heard the passage in English, he still probably wouldn't get all the info down as he would either a) forget it or b) run out of time to write it down (or - far more likely - c) both of the above!) And he isn't great at inferring things either.

Listening/Reading exams in the mid 1990s were actually all in English, certainly with AQA.

I take your point about EFL/ESOL but at least they are hearing it around them while they are here and presumably have a real interest in learning the language or perceive a genuine need for it (which many children in this country sadly do not!)

Hopefully, what I do to help DS1 is to ask a question on a particular topic (so tell him the topic first to give him a clue!), check that he understands it, listen to his answer, then ask him how he could extend it, how he could use other tenses, what opinions he could include and then get him to justify them. He finds it very helpful but then has been taught grammar from the start, so can construct sentences 'on the hoof'. It's the exam technique we are practicing really - making sure he includes what the exam board are looking for and that he gives lengthy answers.

My dd's just done the final bits of her French GCSE. Compared to my 'O'-Level over 30 years ago, it's a dumbed down pile of poop.

Thankfully, she's not taking it further.

This all sounds horribly familiar

DD is getting really good grades in French and Spanish, but as others have said, is really only learning phrases and no conjugating verbs. She is embarassed to speak them too, (French especially, even though we go twice a year) - maybe if they were rote-chanting the verbs every lesson that would be a start

Thanks, Tinuviel. I'll try that! She is in Y9 now, so I'm hoping I'll have some time to sort things out.

My DS (14) is in Y9. He is in the top set for French but in my opinion, his attainment is appalling.

He is going to France for half term. I was jokingly getting him to order basic food items at home today, and he didn't have the faintest idea.
Eg, he asked for 'the ice cream of the water' when I asked him how he would ask for a glass of water!

Conjugating verbs? Only just about and his tenses are very dodgy.

They seem to spend a lot of time on 'enrichment' work which as far as I can see, is watching French films.

Very different to the French teaching of my day. I knew so much more at his age.

Thanks tinuviel - as an examiner and teacher I strongly disapprove of getting them to answer qus in English - how are you supposed to be yhjinking in French if reading anf writing in English? It's daft - multipl choice qus in easy French, with time to rad th qus through before, should eradicate any need to write at all so as to avoid testing writing skills in a listening/reading test.

Most EFL students never visit the UK - they study abroad just as UK students do French.

The thing with the A level is that you don't study the culture topics in much depth at all. You choose two of: writer, dramatist, director, painter, architect and maybe one or two others. Then you write a 250+ word essay on one of them (five/forty marks for grammar and accuracy) and talk for ten minutes about both. Then you learn key vocab for several topics. That's it. I do two languages at A2 and I'm just hoping to get my A*/As and move swiftly on.

Pre-A level it's just dire. I mean, it's pretty dire at A level too but they're more of a stepping stone than something to really explore and grow with. GCSE is a joke...pre GCSE is even worse...but that obvs depends on the school. Oo if I could get my hands on the NC what I'd do to it....why aren't we being made to memorise lists of French history dates, studying the history of French literary thought through time, finding out about the major personalities, modern politics, involvement in major events like WW2, the geography of the country, considering how grammar has changed over time, its roots in other languages etc etc...if they want to make the syllabus fun (which it seems like they're desperate to do), why do they want to treat us like we can only grasp the basics? Why do they feed us all the opinions in textbooks? Grrr!

For those of you who think it has been dumbed down, I agree. I did French O level in 1981 and got an A. I did French A level in 1983 and got a C. I've done no French since, and have just had a formal assessment of my French (needed for work). I was assessed as level C1. My colleague, who has a 1st class honours degree in the language from a RG university (graduated two years ago, degree included a year in France, A* at GCSE and A at A level as well) was assessed as level B2. She can't speak it at all, her accent is atrocious and she hasn't got a clue about grammar.

But even in O level days, you had to work in English for some of the papers. There was translation into English (and some exam boards did translation from English into French, I believe) and there was also a reading comprehension with questions in English. The other parts were solely in French: we had to write a story in French and do an aural comprehension (with a passage that you heard and questions in French that you heard but weren't allowed to write down - can't remember exactly how that worked but I think you could write notes in French but not the exact questions) and a 'dictée. Then obviously the speaking exam was solely in French.

It was a long time ago - about 25 years - and I can't claim to remember perfectly, but am pretty sure my O lEvel French was all in French. Maybe it varied from one exam board to another?

Am shocked by what I'm reading here.

Though good news for my dd2 who has mild dyslexia and little interest in literature but picks up languages in a communicative way v easily - it sounds like short essays on cultural topics would be much more her thing than reading a whole Balzac or something.

But my dd1 - about whom I wrote the OP - will hate this - she (like me) needs some sort of grammar framewirk to slot language into - we son't just pick up languages naturally by learning phrases and slotting them together.

I suppose I shall have to teach her - how tiresome.