URGENT advice wanted by prh47bridge, SchoolsNightmare, PanelChair or any one else expert at appeals

[drivinmecrazy]

We have our Group Presentation at 7 this evening, have just been looking over the schools case. PAN is 240 and we have been given anticipated yr numbers from sept 2012 which are as follows: YR7-240 YR8-241 YR9-240 YR10-241 YR11-271
what reason (apart from 31 successful appeals which i imagine would be doubtful) would the school have to admit 31 over PAN? has PAN changed over the years? if so why??
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Seems a big jump in numbers with no explanation. Don't know why I didn't question it before.
Also at a group presentation, will all parents appealing have been invited? will we get a fair guess at how many others appealing for the same school?

Brilliant, thank you SchoolsNightmare . Think we have been on the same threads at the same time as places allocated. Think you're amazing the knowledge you have acquired and used to help others.
I spoke to the secretary at the school we are appealing to earlier today, and she was full of 'I shouldn't really say this but ...' So sad that even staff at some schools acknowledge admissions policies are sometimes not very effective.
When I told her our address she was shocked we were having to appeal at all. Still, am very grateful we did get an offer of a place from the beginning (not that we want it)
Unfortunately am pretty sure admissions criteria was followed correctly, but are basing our appeal on educational needs but need to look at any inconsistency we can find. Will look forward to any questions other parents bring forward tonight.

I'd have thought they took a bulge class a few years ago. Definitely question the impact this has had on teaching etc in.this year group - they have obviously managed despite over crowded corridors and canteens, science and computer labs!

It sounds like they had an additional class when the current Y11 were admitted. Whether that was a temporary thing or whether there was some change that led them to reduce PAN is impossible to tell. It isn't completely impossible that there were other reasons for going that far over PAN (successful appeals, pupils admitted under the Fair Access Protocol, etc.) but that seems unlikely. I would enquire about that as it may help your case. The fact they have been over PAN in other years certainly helps but they have only gone over by 1, so that suggests appeal panels think the school is operating close to capacity.

As SchoolsNightmare says, for the first part of a grouped individual appeal all parents will be there. If you have any evidence that suggests a mistake was made you MUST present it this evening. If it only concerns your child you may be told to bring it up at your personal hearing. The risk if you wait until your personal hearing is that you may be told it is too late to bring up possible mistakes.

If they talk about overcrowding in the corridors (many do) ask if there have been any accidents attributable to overcrowding. The chances are the answer will be no.

thank you so much. some great points raised. will definately ask about the accidents if they cite over crowding in corridors.
I actually feel sorry for the appeal panel members because it really is not a system of their making but I suppose the buck stops with them as far as us parents are concerned.
Wish me luck, deep breath and we are off to the venue. Will be so glad in 2 weeks when this nightmare is over. As parents we can only do our best. Poor DD is slightly bemused by it all cos she had head of year from her allocated school come to give them a pep talk today and she says it sounds quite nice. I'm sure she will be OK wherever she goes, but so frustrating when as a parent you know what is best for your child

Sorry I could not answer earlier I was sitting on admission appeals and yes over crowding in corridors was mentioned.
Hopefully the school will have given you the answer over the extra 31 in year 11 and it seemed a reasonable answer. I think at secondary school appeals the key issue is always the personal reasons for wanting a place, so you need to concentrate on that aspect of the appeal.

One of the appeal panel beat me to the question about accidents in the corridor, she also highlighted several other contradictions made by the Headmaster. I got in a question about if GCSE results would be affected by the bulge class they had to provide. Was a very flustered reply from Head. I also asked what would happened to the additional teaching resources when that year left, he replied they would be absorbed into the 6th form unit which he had previously claimed did not share any resources with the main building and yr 7-11. He got very tongue tied when asked by a panel member, again, what resources they shared. Think he didn't like being pushed into admitting that the sixth form was under capacity and did indeed have spare resources which were occasionally used by YR7-11.
I was quite surprised that the appeal panel were really putting him on the spot, providing us with much food for thought for our individual appeal. Was also good to see only about 6 lots of parents, though one other was absent but will be appealing.
I was also surprised only I and another parent were putting questions, I thought many would be putting forward queries. Must admit though, think I should have stopped pushing when I saw how uncomfortable he was getting when he wouldn't answer the questions directly. I asked DH afterwards why he didn't stop me pushing, his reply was that 'everyone was enjoying seeing him squirm too much', not sure this bodes well were my DD to get a place. Did enjoy it though, have been a SAHM for too long.
I now have such respect for appeal panel members, what a tough job you do. It's great there are people to keep the schools and LEA in check and on the straight and narrow

The presenting officer is either from the LA if it is a community / VC school or is from the school (headteacher frequently) if the school is their own admission authority. What you describe is actually quite typical of a school which is their own admission authority and does not have that many admission appeals, the presenting officer is not that good at fielding the obvious questions. Ironically though the head teacher should know their school better then anyone it is quite usual that a presenting officer from the LA is actually far better at answering the questions, though they may not be as well acquainted with the school.

I would not bother about making the head squirm, it will have been a good learning process for them in the future! They also would normally feel that a parent that asks the right questions is actually the kind of parent that they want to see with pupils in the school.

Thank you, that is very reassuring. Had visions if DD does get in on appeal her card already being marked as having one of those parents teachers squirm when they see them coming (though am sure at current school they already have that view )
Another question I have is regarding the waiting list. We are currently 12 having moved up 1 place. The LA man said they usually have movement up to about 22 each year, but am not banking on that this year. If we are successful at appeal does that mean we are admitted over PAN or does someone on the waiting list not get the place they might have expected? Does that have any bearing on the panel at all, will they know where we are on the waiting list?
Thank you all so much for your help and advise so far, has made an incredibly daunting journey far less terrifying

Sorry. Didn't see this yesterday but plenty of good advice here already.

Just to confirm the panel do not know where you are on the waiting list and I would advise not even mentioning the waiting list at appeal hearing. The reasoning is that it stops any panel potentially giving priority to those at the top of the waiting list rather than those that are most deserving of a place.

So, did you win the appeal OP?
I realise I'm coming to this a bit late, but, so long as you have enough classrooms, it's much easier to admit a bulge class of 30 than a handful of appellants, because 30 students is 1 whole extra form group, and the numbers bring enough money for additional staff. In contrast, going over PAN by just a few will either mean that some of the 8 form groups have more than 30 students (bad for teaching and learning) or else the cohort will have 9 form groups with a much lower number of students in each (very bad for financial efficiency).

Btw, it's distasteful that you found it fun to goad the Head. Headteachers work incredibly hard, and it's a stressful job. Grabby, entitled parents who only think about themselves make the job harder. Your desirable school may become a lot less desirable if the Head buckles under the strain, because recruiting new Heads is not easy.

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