Following on from thread on unambitious state schools/pupils, - how to you foster this ambition/determination?

[weedsneedcutting]

I read most of aforementioned thread this morning and it's got me thinking.

So some state schools lack ambition for their pupils, or belief that they could do it.

Some state school students, despite encouragement are locked into a lack of self-belief, and lack ambition.

But I also see lots of middle class kids who have a comfortable life who lack ambition because they already have everything they could want for.

I read a couple of biographies recently of people from v. poor backgrounds who worked really hard and got themselves out of extreme poverty and are now v. successful.

So, how do you motivate kids to want to do well at school, I guess I see a cushy middle class bubble as much of a hindrance as working class apathy.

How do you turn a 'coaster' into someone who understands determination, drive and ambition are so important?

I think one thing you do have to accept is that you can only lead the horse to water...

My highly academic and enthusiastic parents turned out two children who were dedicated to studying and both went on to become academics, one who did ok at school but dropped out of uni in his first year to start a (highly successful) business, and then one (their eldest) who really could not engage with school, half-heartedly started one training course after another and only really found himself when he gave up on education altogether and started in a manual job. We are all now happy and relatively successful, but my elder brother regrets the years spent trying to please his parents by doing something that wasn't right for him at all. Drive and ambition is often defined as doing well in either education or business. Those fields just weren't right for him.

My dcs school is an ordinary comp that doesn't lack ambition. The dcs in top sets are expected to go to RG universities.

I think it's simplistic to simply blame schools and/or teachers for "having no ambition" for their students. There are myriad influences which have a direct impact on a student's decision to go or not go to university - which is what the other thread is about - let's face it, MN's view of "having ambition" starts and stops with getting into a RG or Oxbridge university.

I teach in a small rural school. We are in an area of social deprivation (our Ofsted report said so) and as Head of 6th Form, I am fighting against all sorts of things. I have 38 in yr 13 (bigger than last year, but obviously still very small number) and 19 have applied to university. 17 have been accepted. I doubt very much whether 17 will go. Of those, I think only 1 has appied to RG, though several more will get the necessary grades. Whether or not a university is RG didn't come into it for them - every single one applied to the two closest (we're in Gloucestershire) and then most applied to others as well. I may have ambition for them, but however much I encourage them, they are also being influenced by parents ("university is not for the likes of us"/"I never went to university and I'm fine"/"I don't want you to leave home") and the media (it is increasingly difficult to get into university/students end up in massive amounts of debt etc etc) If you grow up in a household where money is tight, the thought of deliberately getting yourself into huge amounts of debt is not exactly welcome. I have had people in from UCAS and from Student Finance to try to dispell the myths, but to no avail.

Tageting Yr 11s is frustrating for me too. One of the brightest boys in Yr 11 told me yesterday that he wouldn't be coming to 6th Form after all as he has secured an apprenticeship at the place his dad works. He wants, eventually, to work in aeronautical engineering, but no amount of discussion, sharing of degree course information etc etc would convince him to consider going down that route. I think it's a shame. But he has clearly been influenced by his dad rather than the school.

Although we've fallen out in the past - I think my friend Evil Twins is right in the first part of her response. 'Schools' are nothing in themselves - you can't just blame a 'school' and have done with it. You have to look at how a school is lead, and what kind of vision there is. And you can't judge a school by its weakest common denominators either.

I think Evil Twins' message shows that the vast majority of us teachers (casting all humour aside for a rare moment) DO actually care a great deal.

Crapteacher :)

Eeek - Crapteacher and I agreeing? Well I never...

Just don't go getting carried away or anything, that's all ;)

Is the "other thread" mentioned here the one about the specific Sutton Trust report about encouraging Oxbridge aspirations amongst G&T pupils?

For that is quite a different thing to ambition/determination in general. I suppose finding your passions is the start point for that. So parents can foster this by exposing their DCs to as many activities as possible, and encouraging them to continue with those they like, and doing what they can to help them work at it, make progress, and have the little successes that might lead to the big one's in future.

In the context of the thread about Oxbridge applications, this was half done anyhow as the teacher survey was asking about those pupils known to be academically gifted and/or G&T register; and I assume the liking academic work and positive reinforcement/reward was already present. I suppose what the Sutton Trust was hoping teachers might do, and another component that parents could do both for academia, but also for other areas (as academia may not be your DC's passion) is talk about success, and encourage them to dream big and work towards it.

For most things, expertise is the result of years and years of work - if it proves to be an unreal aspiration, they will be big enough to handle the disappointment when they find this for themselves. So don't ever voice thoughts on limitations, lest they become self fulfilling (and self defeating) prophecies.

I agree with Cory from my own childhood experience, I was expected and hence complied to do very well at school, went to a good university. Once I achieved my parents expectations, the last thing I wanted was a high pressure or responsible job so I am not sure how well ambition can be fostered. I think schools and parents need to help children discover/encourage their talents and passions which will hopefully ignite their desire to do well academically or otherwise! I take my kids to a range of events and activities to let them experience as much as possible whether this will have the desired effect is anybodys guess! I wouldn't be surprised if one of them turns up on MN in 20 years complaining about it!

A huge influence is the child's self efficacy and that can be nurtured by parents, schools but is even influenced by their own moods! Indeed 'expecting schools and teachers to achieve this on their own makes absolutely no sense at all (but ignorant politicians just don't realise or conveniently forget).

More information on the following link - hope I am allowed to leave links, it's not my website or anything.

www.nasponline.org/publications/cq/pdf/V39N3_FT_Self-Efficacy.pdf

Try again!

www.nasponline.org/publications/cq/pdf/V39N3_FT_Self-Efficacy.pdf

The middle class bubble theory is interesting and accurate - I was from a working class home and grew up in an area I was desperate to leave. I saw education as my way out, am ambitious and now have a well-paid job I love, by dint of pulling myself up by my bootstraps.

My dc don't have that incentive but are nevertheless hard workers - dd1 doing well in a RG university.

I think the tone set at home makes the biggest difference, but that does need to be supported at their school, both by teachers and peers.

For a while dd2 had a bunch of unambitious and rather shallow friends and was underachieving.

Me and dh encouraged her to take part in a time-consuming sport outside school, which brought her into contact with better influences and prevented her hanging around with the shallow bunch.

Fortunately, as she matured, she could see the situation for herself and turned things around... her friends now are academically competitive and she's working hard for her GCSEs.

We've always stressed that good qualifications are something that no-one can take away from you.

I've also made it abundantly clear that the bank of mum and dad will not be open after they've graduated, so they have to find work that will support the lifestyle they hope to achieve.. my income has supported a comfortable house and a couple of holidays a year which I think they'll want to continue in adult life.

However, I've also emphasised that good qualifications will give them more choice in finding something they'll love doing - and that is ultimately the most important thing, as so much time is spent at work.

Dd2 has expensive tastes, so I think that has spurred her on.

I think mamhaf has raised a couple of very important points

1. recognising that education is a way out/up
2. having similarly minded friends

The two things can go together and create a virtuous circle within a school.

Talking about possibilities is important. Oxford/Cambridge arent the be all or end all. From GCSE level onwards schools need to be talking about the future not just in a 'pass this or else' way but also talking about student life and what comes after graduation. De-mystification is important IMO.

Difficult one.

I had a disadvantaged childhood in many ways, but was hugely advantaged by my ambitious Mother. It's funny but her expectations/aspirations/ambitions for me would bring huge critisism here on MN, particularly if she'd been middle class. If she were psoting today she'd have the usual suspects telling her she was damaging me and that she should let me roam free through the meadows before I crumbled under the weight of the sheer pressure.

But the reality is that if you want your DC to be ambitious in whatever they do, then you have to lead from the front. You have to be ambitious yourself, not take the easy option, stretch yourself, set high standards.

Then you have to make it clear that you have similar ambitions for your DC. That you expect them to stretch themselves because you believe in them.

Actively seek out new things, tough things. Encourage them to hang out with DC who are also stretching themselves (sports and music and drama are very good here).

Keep showing them things that are utterly amazing but can only be achieved by effort and consistency. Explain the link. Endlessly .

I think, you'll always find exception to every rule (as in the Chinese and Asian communities whose academic success is phenomenal despite coming from relative poor backgrounds), but generally middle class parents have higher expectations and aspirations which results in better academic results.

It's the old cliche, parents and their kids first teachers as in wordfactory's case. And no, I don't tick all the boxes to put me in the middle class brigade, the only box I tick, so not sure what class that makes me, is believing in my son, working with him tirelessly and having him know that you can achieve what the next man can achieve, with hard work and commitment.