why is it so difficult to find a good school

[poppytin]

Why are almost schools with good academic performance are either independent, grammar, or faith schools? What would you do if you have an academically bright child but lived in an area without independent nor grammar and would not like your child to attend faith schools? Since most schools have adopted academy status, shouldn't they remove catchment criteria and serve as many good pupils as possible?

Ah, by the time I actually found the link Blu has already posted the same conclusions -

• faith schools are not the majority AT ALL
• the ones that I personally know are partially selective and not comprehensive in any sense of the word (though of course, at 6th form entry schools select by academic grade anyway)
• the ones that I know are in pretty wealthy areas which skews intake

And finally OP, I presume by schools selecting only 'good pupils' you mean a system of return to grammar system and sod everyone who doesn't make the grade. Lovely

Any school that is selective in any way will do better than one that isn't. Doesn't mtt what the selection criteria are- the vey fact that you qhqve to find out hat they a and conform to them means you are a parent who will b interested and involved in your child's duration. Which is one of the main criteria for success.

If you started a school where parents had to learn to juggle to get a place, it would get better results than the non-juggling school next door.

Child's education, not duration.

anyone can explain the dominance of faith schools in the top comprehensive list above? Assuming these schools take in pupils of all abilities just like a normal non-faith comprehensive, does faith devotion lead to academic performance?

If you check the latest GCSE results tables for 2011, the results are shown against 3 levels of ability at which pupils entered the school at 11. If you check the high achieving faith schools, it's amazing (or perhaps not) how faith has filtered out low ability children.

CecliyP- a nun of my acquaintance some years ago said "The Holy Spirit chooses the next Pope- but it's amazing how often the Holy Spirit chooses a rich Italian"

I do love that juggling metaphor seeker (do I mean metaphor?). It's spot on.

I am sure faith schools don't do that deliberately. But it happens as a consequence of selecting by faith. For a range of different reasons. And does it really matter? (in terms of deciding a 'good' school or not). All that matters is that people understand the stats and that they are talking about a school which reflects it's intake and how that might not be exactly the same as a 'good school'.

(for all that I don't agree, in principle, with state funded exclusive faith schools it is undeniable in areas like mine that sometimes faith is a way for a child from an economically disadvantaged non-mortgae-in-an-expensive catchement child to get a place in a good school. So, as a wise friend of mine says, in an unfair system it makes it it is a way for some families to get a fairer deal' - or similiar.)

Mine went to a "faith" primary
it was either that or shite
so the non motivated parents went to shite
the motivated (even openly atheist like us) went "faith"
and then the motivated end up at the secular community comp
and the idle end up at the god bothering academy
tee hee

Maybe, Blu. But do people understand the stats? Certainly in the press these schools tend to be lauded as top performing 'comprehensives' while other schools are criticised as not producing such good results.

I know what you mean with your second post, Blu. I did once live in a town that was socially very stratified while the Catholic school took a far wider cross section of the community than any of the other schools.

Nope, I think many people read the press, panic, jump to conclusions and don't even really look into the stats, facts or real life schools.

There are undoubtedly terrible issues in some areas of London, with over-subscribed schools, homes in 'black holes' and areas with problem schools. really tough for people who have to navigate all that. However, the shock horror headlines that were in the press over the last few weeks showing how few families got first choice or even one from the top 3 hid some important facts. Such as with 6 choices and a high density of schools, many people know full well that their first 2 or even 3 preferences are wildly hopeful and optimistic - wild cards, even, in terms of out of area, faith, selective. So it's no great surprise to them that they don't get them. Round us I know people who use the first 4 choices for 3 super-selective grammars and a super-selective Foundation school, and then put down our 2 excellent local comps as 5 and 5 - so that even if they get 5th or 6th choice they are very happy. I know someone who was trumpeting loudly about the dreadful 'system' because she had no place allocated - she had not put down one single school whihc was a remotely realistic choice. But the stats as reported by the press include all this as The Dire Schooling Crisis In London. (repeat of disclaimer - whihc is genuinely dire for some, and not to detract from that)

cecily - those stats certainly give the lie to the baloney faith schools were wont to trot out about it all being down to their 'ethos'. (Personally I've never found a combination of religious discrimination and hypocrisy particularly ethical).

As to whether people 'see through' the stats - I think the 'motivated' parents will see them and be extra pleased their child will tend to be with a high achieving cohort. (I'm pleased my DD is a GS with other academically able girls - but she got there largely by her own ability). It won't do anything to help mend the system.

This is all very interesting- and makes me feel like a case study. I have two equally bright children, who were brought up more or less the same. Older one passed the 11+ and is at grammar school (99% a-c) and on track for 10 a or as at GCSE. Younger one tanked the 11+ and is going to a school with sub 40% a-c. . But I am sure he will be in the 40% and will do as well as his sister. It's all about how you look at the stats.

Seeker, I went to a highly competitive 'direct grant' school (selective private - half the places went to the county's top performers in the 11+ paid for by the LA), my brother went to a normal county grammar, my sister went to my parents's 3rd choice of comp.

We all have exactly the same level and grade of graduate qualifications

Because all the criteria you have listed select bright middle class children.

I taught a very bright 17 year old. She had arrived from Poland aged 14. Her choice of school was the local sink school.

At 16 she had 10 GCSEs grades A*-C and one D grade. The D was in English so her school , yet again, failed to climb up the league tables.

Parents who look at the league tables and see this school see lots of EAL pupils and low A*-C (inc English and Maths) and bust a gut to get their child into a 'good' school.

But if this school can take a foreign child and in 2 years bring them up to the standard to get 10 GCSEs they are doing something right. How well would a native English speaker, with average or above average inteligence do?

What is. "sink school"?

Sorry- that made me sound as if I was an EAL student in the very early days!

What is a "sink school"?

There are some very poorly performing (or at least, poor results reporting) faith schools too. Even in London. In most inner city areas in fact. But people never ever want to talk about that because it undercuts the idea that all faith schools are bastions of privilege.

To the poster who stated that chaotic families would never manage to get to mass every Sunday, let alone take functions within the church (eg altar boy) when I was a kid growing up on a London council estate, the one common factor between the several chaotic families I knew (where kids were in and out of care, among other things) was an almost perfect mass attendance record (not from the dads, but from the mums and the kids). Which contrasted starkly with the school attendance record.

I don't think anyone has suggested that all faith schools are bastions of priviledge. We all know that there are plenty of faith schools that are neither high achieving or oversubscribed. Some are even in close proximity to those that are. Our posts have just led on from poppytin's second post about top comprehensives being faith schools.

My juggling's coming on apace.

As long as they don't bloody well change the the entrance criteria and put uni-cycling higher, we should be OK....

Don't worry- there's a new school down the road that admits on crochet aptitude.

Metabillis - there are indeed underperforming faith schools - the discussion of high achieveing ones is in the context of the OP of this thread.

And the chaotic families I refer to are the ones I deal with through my work and see something of at DS's inner city school. Where there is drug addiction and gun and knife crime and the children are out buying sweets from the petrol station at 4.30 am and are likely to wake up in the morning to find that the 'parent' is absent and there is no food for breakfast. There is a significant proportion of competely disaffected households like that in some areas of London and I seriously doubt that they are able to make themselves eligible for the The Cardinal Vaughhan, for example.

You will note that I also asked if it mattered much - what matters is that people understand the story the stats may tell.

Much of this thread is attempting to look at the facts behind the stats - not grinding axes.