Is it usual for a teacher to ask whether a child has copied something off the internet?

[madamehooch]

Bit of background. My DD is in Year 7. Creative writing has always been her 'thing'. Throughout primary school, her teachers were always banging on about how good it was. Other forms of writing - not so much. She's a born storyteller.

Now, I know that she is now a small fish in a much bigger pond but I still believe her storywriting skills are pretty good. Her English teacher must think so too because on her last two creative writing assignments, she's asked DD if she's copied them from the internet or from a book and, on the first occasion, insinuated that she 'must' have done so. She's even written this on her work.

DD is pretty blase on the outside about this. Her initial view was that she should feel flattered that the teacher thinks her work is "as good as a book." However, I feel a bit concerned that the teacher hasn't picked up from her previous school assessment that she is good at creative writing, and am also worried that this will ultimately knock DD's enthusiasm for writing by not getting the credit she deserves.

I'm probably being a bit precious about the whole thing but didn't know whether to say something at the next parent's evening?

In the old days, it was "Did you write this yourself?"

I think the important thing is that your DD is never put off by insensitive remarks and learns to brush them off without a second thought. That's not being precious, it's avoiding her dumbing down to fit in.

Hard to tell what the teacher is thinking, whether it's genuine surprise [clumsy way of asking] or of lower calibre than you'd like [little you can do about that but teach DD to manage the time while in her class, which hopefully is not for long]. Maybe that will become more obvious at parent's evening? Changing others' behaviours is a limited option, so I'd go for supporting my DC if it were me.

I think I would be concerned that the teacher has effectively written on your DD's work that she has cheated and I wouldn't wait till parents evening to query it. I would phone/email the teacher and ask about it.

Have they only moved onto creative writing recently? I presume she has had this teacher since september so she should have a better idea of your DD's usual standard of work.

Ask her to get DD to write a piece during class one day. She can then see the quality of her own work.
And should then apologise

I have asked pupils this in the past but only when I KNEW they had cheated-I.e. I had googled a line from their work and found it online. It is usually very obvious when a child has copied an essay because they're never very good at making it look like their own style.

There was one occasion I accused an upper sixth boy of plagiarising creative work again because I KNEW he had-I immediately recognised the piece.

I'd never, ever accuse someone without knowing for sure, and I'd never write it on their work without talking to them first. It sounds like your DD's teacher either knows she's cheated (which sounds very unlikely!) or is not very good at dealing with talented pupils/a bit of a cynical person! I wouldn't be impressed with her if I were you.

well, are you SURE that she hasn't?

if you are certain, then i would go and speak to the teacher and say that you really don't appreciate your daughter being accused of plagiarism and if she cannot accept and nurture her talents then perhaps she ought to be moved to a different class

I only say something if I know for sure. I usual type in a sentence from the piece and then find the piece they have copied. I then call them over, show them my evidnce, and ask them what they thought they were doing! By this point they are usually quite pale...

Frankly I would be a bit concerned about this. We had this last year with my DDs maths - the teacher would not believe she had suddenly jumped from a level 6 to 8 (his measurement) over a relatively short period of time. He wrote a note in the book and I emailed him and cc'd the Head of Dept. He backed down immediately and tried to deny everything. He left at the end of the year luckily.
There are kids in her school who are talented at writing like your daughter - they are not accused of cheating but praised and get write ups in the school magazine and the work shown in assembly - if a student does fantastic work the school should praise them not accuse of cheating. I would email the teacher cc'ing the Head of Dept or Year and arrange to speak to the teacher on the phone at the very least; it is unacceptable to be accused of cheating.

Be aware that it's unacceptable to accuse someone of cheating if they haven't been cheating but it's really, really important to accuse someone if they have been, in order to get to the bottom of why, how to prevent it happening again, instil the importance of avoiding plagiarism etc. It sounds like this teacher has jumped the gun a bit and handled it badly but I'd be wary of going in so heavy that teachers end up not being able to address it when it's real (a bollocking from a Head of Department rather than a supportive chat due to pressure from parents for instance-depends now good the HoD is and how well they handle criticism themselves)-in 4 years when she's doing GCSEs you'll be furious if a child in her class cheats and gets away with it.

I agree about plagiarism. My children seem to be encouraged to research on the internet to get information to be able to do HW etc but they don't seem to have to make a note of their sources. It would be good for them to do so now, rather than get a shock when they get to Uni.

Thanks so much for all your comments.

Her last piece of creative writing was to write a horror story. She based it on her childhood fear of the tooth fairy. I saw her sit at her desk and write it so I know she didn't copy it. I presume the teacher made the comment because she did not see her write the story in class.

I think I'll ask her to bring home her English book so I can see exactly what the teacher has written in it before I go any further.

Many years ago I took my DD to the Middle East when the Hajj sp was on. We bought the local English papers every day went to an exhibition during the holiday, bought postcards with photos etc etc. We went to a lot of trouble band she put in a lot of work but she was given a low mark because the teacher said she got it off the Internet.

Writers have a voice. Teachers often think a child has cheated if the work does not sound like theirs. Hint deste WE went to a lot of trouble!!

From the other point of view (teacher) copy and paste is so common you have to think about it. The first thing that allerts me is when a piece of work suddenly goes from English to American spelling.

I think looking at her work is a good idea than you can see what the teacher has said and why.

My longer-term concern would be that the current class wont stretch your childs ability.
The "cheating" bit could be used by you as a route to getting your child moved to a higher level set or getting her some extension/gifted and talented work.

Given that she has been in the class now for six months it really is time for her literacy lessons to ratchet up a gear.

sashh - I read her story. It was brilliant. No American spelling (a few spelling mistakes in fact.) I know for a fact she did not copy it. I watched her write the majority of it. Wolfie - she has a voice. The story was written from the viewpoint of two young teen girls and the words they used were out of my daughter's mouth! It was also based on the fears she had as a child.

Rosemary - I think the fact that she has been in the class for over six months and the teacher still hasn't picked up on the fact that she is pretty good at creative writing is what's bothering me the most. Fair enough, if she'd only been there half a term but surely she's been there enough time for the teacher to know each child's strengths and weaknesses?

I would advise you to get your DD to enter some writing competitions - google "writing competitions" and you will find many to choose from. Also investigate your local council website - many LAs run these.

If she wins or gets an honourable mention in one of these the school will not be able to ignore her talent as it will have been objectively assessed by a neutral third party - can't just dismiss this as doting mummy thinking her precious offspring is a genius! .

My DD won a poetry competition run by our LA as part of our Readers Festival and the school were over the moon, saw it as a really big deal and made lots of fuss of her. She was in the school newsletter, had her piece displayed prominently and was congratulated by the Head in the end of term assembly. It really helped her confidence and has made her believe in her talent. The school had already recognised that DD is talented, however, she has not had the problems your poor DD had.

I emailed the head of year and head of English to let them know she had won and the school took it from there.

I would also have a look at your DDs work and read what the exact comment was that the teacher made. If it is as bad as your DD says I would complain loudly. Accusing someone of cheating just because they produce exceptionally good work is outrageous. Most teachers would be just thrilled to have such a talented DC in their class!

Wolfiefan when I said we went to a lot of trouble I meant looking for information for her to take home. We were on holiday but took time out to get information for her project. We could have sat by the pool but thought her project was more important for her. None of it came off the Internet.

Being on the other side we had a student who was lazy, could hardly string a sentence together but the final essay she handed in was brilliant. We marked her down because she let slip the month before that her mother was an English teacher at a senior school, it was obvious her mother had done it. The difference here is that we knew she didn't have the capability to do the essay.

What exactly did the teacher write on the piece of work? Can your daughter ask to speak to the teacher about it and say it was honestly her own work? Is it possible your daughter did add something to her writing that wasn't her own work? (see final paragraph below).

Slightly off topic but I think also worth mentioning is I noticed a child I taught a long time ago was copying work, from books and other children. I think it can be a phase and often springs from children not believing that their own ideas are good enough etc. I told this child that her own ideas were those I wanted to see written down and I believed in her. She stopped doing it.

Again slightly o/t but our primary is speaking a lot about 'magpie - ing' (how ever you spell it) ideas from stories you've read etc. These can be actual words and phrases - the children are encouraged to keep on ongoing list to use in their writing. This would have been frowned on in my day but now it seems to be all about collaboration - whether that's between you and a class mate or you and J.K. Rowling etc...:)

It's possible she "borrowed" from some source and the teacher recognised it. Pop the story into Copyscape and you'll know! But writers DO take from others to some extent...it's part of learning to write imo...trying on different styles...

Meh- teachers have always done this. I used to get 'is this your own work?'
I think the fact that your daughter is not bothered is a good sign she knows that she is good at writing and not concerned about the teacher's allegations queries.
One thing that you could do would be to encourage your daughtere to write in different voices- My DD wrote stories in a very Jacqueline Wilson style- although good it was a) derivative and b) a bit boring.

This sounds crap - I used to get the occasional "did you think of this yourself?" and cynical comments from teachers and they just really discourage a child whose tried really hard at her work. Also, a lot of writing IS about imitating, as is all learning, e.g. seeing how newspapers write sentences and being able to write in that style, and how that's different from advertising or fairy tales or whatever.

I would probably find a time to speak to the teacher quietly after school (maybe not in front of your daughter) and assure her that she writes these stories unaided and in front of you. I know it's difficult so early on in the school but she may find other English teachers as she goes along who appreciate her ability and encourage her, even if/when she's not in their class. Is there a book group or writing society or school newspaper she could get involved with?

I've just been picking up some creative tips from Kate Dunn. For example:

Show, don?t tell

Another old chestnut with a kernel of pure truth at the centre. A good writer doesn?t tell a story, she shows it unfolding and that way the reader is drawn in, rather than remaining on the edge of the action. ?Re-reading the letter from her brother the girl felt sad. It was not good news? is a colourless description compared to ?She read the letter again, mouthing the words, the thin pages trembling in her fingers. When she had finished it, she folded it in half and then in half again, as if the bad news could be shut away inside it, to be hidden in the back of a drawer and then forgotten.?

Direct her to the website & further feed her interest - there's lots of good, less obvious stuff on adverbs etc. Get her to do even more to knock the socks off that teacher.

Another thought, could it be a compliment in a 'can this be your own work? It's beyond outstanding' sort of vein?

oh dear - "who's tried really hard"

can spell, honest.

Deste - the teachers would have said the same about me I fear. My terrible scrawl, my poor spelling and disjointed ideas yet it was all up there. I was so unhappy I couldn't think straight. My other work was remedial, I couldn't tell the time. I could go on. It's not always obvious a child doesn't have the ability. Ability can always develop later although this isn't widely believed it seems.