Anyone requested that their (state) secondary start offering a GCSE?

[LittenTree]

How do I go about it? Letter to the Head? Backed up with what?

I am thinking about "Computer Science" as opposed to IT.

This shouldn't be beyond them as they produce the best academic results in the county, inc Eng Bacc. (i.e not NVQ stylee 'equivalents'), my point being they shouldn't shy away due to complexity!

I know there has been discussion about this inc by the government. I am absolutely No Fan of this coalition BUT there is no doubt about it, somehow standards had to be recalibrated and 'proper' rigour introduced back into the curriculum.

Well, this is one way of doing it!

Our DCs need to know not just how to find their way around a computer, they need to know how they actually work and how to make them work.

State schools that follow the national curriculum still manage to offer vocational qualifications and college placements to less academically inclined students and extra GCSEs to the most able. You certainly don't need to be an academy to do this.

And you still don't seem to get the point that the hiring of new teachers doesn't depend on whether a parent fancies their DC having a go at a particular course but on how much money the school has sloshing around. And believe me it's in short supply. If there are no teachers capable of teaching it and the school can't afford it then it won't be offered. And that is nothing to do with ideology, simply economics.

If the course is then compulsory, then you could well end up with people who aren't really qualified to teach it giving it a go.

Actually, LittenTree, I've just got out ds's Options Booklet for GCSEs, and there is something called CIDA (Certificate in Digital Applications - one GCSE) which is "only suitable for pupils who are highly motivated, capable of independent work and are seriously committed to using ICT".

There is a National Certificate in ICT which is only "for a few pupils by invitation" - which is a fancy way of saying it's for the less able.

hth

'a few pupils by invitation'

Right here, right now I fully recognise 'there's a squeeze on', but we are trying her eto equip DC who will enter the workforce 5-10 years hence whne things will look very different.

IF sufficient parents (not necessarily just one who 'fancies their DC 'having a go' at something) took heed of the experts opinion, which is that we, as a country, need to start teaching coding (to those who are able to access it) and we all contacted our schools - which are pretty much all on track to be Academy-fied, maybe we'd see the cash being diverted for this, say.

We can find how many millions of pounds of foreign aid for India every year, can't we? Just as an example.

I would recommend you become a parent Governor, join finance and curriculum and see exactly how easy all of this really is.

If you want to ensure senior leadership implements a new strategy like this and fast, I recommend you push Ofsted to include it on its criteria! It will be the only way to create magic in an environment with costs so immensely squeezed, you cannot believe (but you will when you become a Governor!)

Look, I work for the NHS, you don't need to tell me about 'squeezed'.

However, I don't believe in the 'We're doomed' mantra. OK, this may not happen here and now but the seeds of change can be sown, no? The idea that a school responsive to its community, not the LEA, now it is an Academy might like to set up a forum where things like exploring other GCSE options can be mooted? For instance? I mean, I'm hardly suggesting a compulsory course in Azerbaijani, am I? They already do ICT and it seems CIDA at the school, so actual Computer Science is hardly a leap into the unknown. Is it at your DCs schools?

I, to be honest, am rather surprised at how low people on here seem to accept that the bar be placed, the endless 'oh no, it can't be done, you don't understand, curb your misguided enthusiasm, it is the way it is and ever more shall be so'- I'm encountering. We aren't feeling that way in the NHS so maybe it's a certain mind-set?

PS I am already a parent governor of a primary, Kez. Are you?

Yes, VC of a secondary and Chair of Finance.

The problem doesn't lie in not envisioning a change but in application very soon. 80% of budgets will be staffing costs and you can't just conjure up programmers. For schools with one (we've got one as it happens) then things can be done but if you don't have a staff member who can teach this and it's not the sort of thing they can learn in a short course, then you can only plan ahead because the resources just aren't there to suddenly bring something new into the curriculum.

On an earlier post, I did say to ask. Schools need to know and it may be on their radar too. However, a change in the short term is unlikely to be possible unless there are staff changes coming up or it was on their strategic improvement list already.

I haven't said it can't be done, just that your suggestion that schools just hire a bunch of teachers in order to teach it was silly. You also keep going on about academies as if they are the solution. My school is an academy yet has no money.

Michael Gove has already announced the scrapping of the curriculum for ICT at the recent BECTA conference so I expect schools will be looking at their provision now anyway.

Oh, and I also think your claim that state schools are of the opinion that all students are of equal intelligence and should be taught the same thing is bollocks.

Actually I think the OP says that another poster here seems to be "of the opinion that all students are of equal intelligence", something about the silly idea that an average class of SM girls shouldn't be patronised with typing as they should all 'have a go' at was it physics 'O' level?, regardless of their chance of passing it because there are some DC at a SM who might pass it.

IMO I'd suggest to the Head of teh school that it's something to consider, supplying the relevant links (I also read that 'We must teach our kids to Code' article in one of the broadsheets and I confess I hadn't realised ICT was another one of those 'fudge' make-up-the-GCSE-numbers subjects, that it didn't teach coding!)

Some of those courses offer more difficult units which do include programming (I believe) but the units have low pass rates. For every parent who would be happy for their child to be pushed and given the opportunity to do the unit and accepts they stand a higher chance of failure, you will have two parents who want their child to achieve the highest grade possible and not sit that unit.

It's not possible to run - on a state school budget - small GCSE groups and it's a brave Head to expect her students to accept lower grades as an offset for a better overall programming experience.

And all of that assumes the school have some one on the staff roll already that can deliver that unit.

Our school has offered it as a twilight session in the past year and the small group doing it have done it as an extra unit not instead of, so should get the best grade they are capable of and have the experience too. However, involved in this was a most wonderful teacher prepared to do this under their current contract. Schools cannot employ new teachers on the basis they do it out of love for the school nor can they expect current teachers to offer it beyond a period considered reasonable by the teacher themselves. So, that's not a long term solution.

A good academic school certainly should be offering rigorous academic options and those schools ought to lead really as they have they best chance of filling a class of 30 able to achieve in the subject but, yet again, it has to be accepted that could take some time.

No, she said 'I also despair of that stupid, state-school English attitude of 'all DC are of equal intelligence and thus must be taught exactly the same curriculum regardless of whether they have the skills to master half of it'.'

I don't think I've ever come across anyone with that attitude in a state school.

It is strange also, that the OP thinks it is fine that secondary modern girls were taught typing without any opportunity for physics O-level yet criticises the German system (which, by the way, has been condemned by the UN for perpetuating social inequality) which is very similar to the old tripartite system because it separates children out too early. Volcan was also correct to point out that some girls at the secondary modern would have achieved the same score on the 11+ as boys who made it to the grammar and therefore shouldn't be automatically considered as unsuitable for physics O-level simply because they weren't at the grammar school.

Comps don't teach all children the same curriculum and they don't make students who can't cope sit triple science on the off-chance that they'll suddenly get physics aged 16. The OP seems to have some bizarre idea that the national curriculum means that all the kids sit through exactly the same lessons all the way through secondary school. Which is bollocks.

Blimey, don't you lot preach a litany of despair? What happened to striving to make your good better, and your better, best?

FWIW my sons primary, following parental requests, rearranged their school day, and presumably, successfully their 'finances' to meet the 'demand' for twice as much French teaching as was being offered under the NC. It was felt that the French on offer was 'token', perhaps like the teaching of just ICT to kids bright enough to handle coding (ICT here maybe being the equivalent of teaching secondary modern girls touch typing skills in the 1970s, maybe?) therefore they wanted to go one step further and consolidate that learning which they managed to do, so it isn't impossible.

Could you link to the UN report about Germany and social equity please? I'd be really interested in reading that, and seeing where, for instance, Australia comes, as I've had first hand experience of all 3 systems.

I had to smile a bit at the reference to private schools and CS cos yes, I must admit the 2 boys I know personally in private secondaries are being taught CS, not ICT!

Let us know how you get on with the Head, if you broach the issue of CS over ICT, OP!

Well, here's irony; DS's ICT homework tonight, Y8?

Code a basic webpage!

But to be fair, as other/s on this thread know, DS is at a very good school, all things considered so maybe they are already ahead of the game?! Already starting to select who will benefit from the 'Computer Science' GCSE, whatever it's called (thanks, G!)

Incidentally, I'd also be interested in the UN link re social mobility and education noblegiraffe. I honestly thought England was w-a-ay down there; had no idea the Germans were worse! I did a gap year there in (ahem) 1979 and all 3 DC where I worked were at different types of school.

One can hardly compare a Primary with a Secondary. By GCSE a student has a fixed curriculum - x hours of core teaching x hours of option teaching and x hours of required elements like PE, RE etc

It's not a case of finding time. The time is there - if you use an option block. The time is not there - if you don't use an option block.

So, assuming a GCSE is offered, the time is there, now it comes to finances. You already have subject specialists on the books taking all the staffing budget. Programmers are not likely to be on the books. At GCSE the teachers have to really know their stuff, so the teachers have to be the right ones. You also need to be able to appeal to 30 students to pick it. It's no good everyone on Mumsnet wanting the option, only for students themselves to not apply in the number needed.

It's a completely different situation than arranging more French at primary level teaching for all/almost all pupils, where the pupils have no choice but to do it and the teacher could be, but wouldn't need to be trained in French to as high a level as a GCSE teacher.

It's not being negative. It's being realistic.

That's good Litten tree. Hopefully they have a teacher with the right training on their staff already.

"Code a basic web page"
but HTML is not programming, its just a form of WYSIWYG macro much of it.

Right click anywhere on this screen (yes, this one)
near the bottom should be "view page source"
click on it
you are now looking at the HTML code for Mumsnet.
It works on any web page.

But I didn't know that at all!

How many other MNetters know or understand what you just wrote?

Genuine question- DS writing the following isn't him writing down code? (copied straight from his h/w!)

My First Heading

My first paragraph.

Here's the UN report on German Education.

ampere this report analyses all sort of information about education in various countries. It's quite complimentary about Australia in terms of social equality - see the graph on page 41 and discussion on page 42.

If you want a quick at a glance picture of education in various countries and how it links to social equality, here's a graph (the same as the one on page 41 in the report I linked to). While the UK isn't great, Germany is obviously terrible! (data from 2001)

Kez- iyo, if a school is offering 'Systems Control' at GCSE, would you assume they had suitable qualified teachers/programmers? I don't know! You know more about the topic than me, as does Talkinpeace.

My only defence is that we don't flame posters who write 'MY DS is good like and hes gota go grammer school or im gona find out whyy an poeple ar gonna suffer' (I exaggerate!) But what I mean is that such parents who have obviously not enjoyed the benefits of a higher level of education themselves can obviously ask that their DC, who are capable, do get those opportunities; therefore I, who am pre-computers, need to check exactly what coding is, knowing only that is is the language/s used to make a computer do what we want it to as opposed to ICT which is 'How to use 'Word' and a spreadsheet'!

Litten
it is "code" in that its HTML (and tell him I hate black on pink websites !!)

but its not "code" in that its now what makes Windows 7 or Excel work ....
then again, learning how to write HTML and then CSS and then Java is an excellent start.
I wrote the original version of my DHs website and still maintain it so I'm rather a closet geek as well as a bean counter -
and the easy way to pick up nice bits of HTML code is to right click website you like and then copy and paste

I would expect a school to have suitably qualified staff, yes. I don't know the syllabus of that GCSE so don't know if they'd need to understand programming or not. I know issues can arise with teaching when the are unforeseen circumstances - say a course is running and a teacher goes sick, so the replacement isn't as good, but to offer a new course in the first place, you would expect the teacher to be adequately qualified.

Had to smile at this one in the second report you linked to, giraffe:

1. Strong opinions in society go hand in hand with widespread ignorance regarding children and education.

Bit of an assumption!

My son wants to be a programmer or systems analyst (or webdesigner if he cant cope academically - he is dyslexic) but he says he needs Maths and physics and the programming can wait really (except he doesn't want it to wait so does it himself at home).

It is different from ICT and I suspect ICT is very useful for many children - maybe not academically stretching but useful - whereas coding appeals and will be useful to a much smaller group of students.