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Secondary education

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Extra English & Maths, good. :) One less GCSE, bad. :(

44 replies

NotDaphne · 09/04/2012 09:53

My DD's school has just had the inspectors in and come out as simply adequate, with KS3 provision of English and Maths well below average, especially for the more able students and especially for girls. The school's response is to plan to remove a GCSE, using 2 hours a week that this frees up to boost English and Maths (ie an hour each), with the other 2 hours to be spent on the Welsh Baccalaureate. (Don't get me started on that one. It may be great for kids who are less academic and need more strings to their bow but it's not a fair swap for a GCSE where the top set kids are concerned.)

I want my DD to have higher quality English and Maths and am resigned to paying for tutors if need be and don't see why she has to lose a GCSE for this to happen. Her year is the one getting terminal exam GCSE's to prove to the world how tough this govt. is on education, so not only will it be harder for her to get an A than a student a year older than her, but she will come out of school with one fewer GCSE than students at other schools. Moving schools is not a first choice - she's settled, a hard worker, very well supported by her social group and, as we're in a small town, distance is an issue.

I am meeting with the head teacher soon to try to convince the school to let the top sets (at least) choose to do 10 GCSEs instead of 9 and I need creative ideas to put forward re: provision of higher quality/extra English and Maths without eating into another subject's time or the school's budget.

So far all I can think of is 6th form mentoring for GCSE students, perhaps 6th form led lunchtime/after school clubs, cost-free rewards for students based on attendance at these clubs (eg a non-uniform day or to be allowed into lunch early) and learning logs based around BBC Bitesize homework and signed off by teachers.

Any other suggestions or arguments I could use to persuade the school to make their new plan optional would be much appreciated.

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daffodilly2 · 10/04/2012 10:20

Ask the school what they plan for raising achievement. I don't think more English and Maths is a waste.

My son goes to a high achieving comp and they do less GCSEs than their sister school - also successful, to improve Maths and English - seems to work.

9 GCSEs is plenty. If you employ tutors I'd do so for the subjects she is doing and pursue 9 maximum grades there.

Kez100 · 10/04/2012 10:22

....on and portfolio.

So, it is important to have work to show, and doing GCSE will help her in that, but they are a lot of work.

I do see exactly where you are coming from.

Good luck it getting somewhere with all of this.

CecilyP · 10/04/2012 11:54

Now you have said about having to drop History, I can see where you are coming from. Nine subjects still seems plenty, especially as there is a lot of work in Art and Textiles. In your DD's school, the problem seems less the quantity of GCSE's, but the lack of options. In DS's school, they only did 8 subjects but French and a humanity (History or Geography) were compulsory, and that still left 3 option choices for things pupils fancied doing. Would there be any leeway for negotiation regarding dropping one of the 6 compulsory subjects in favour of history? Otherwise, history is a subject that could be picked up again at A level; not ideal, but still possible.

Bletchley · 10/04/2012 17:27

I still think it's art AND textiles that's the problem. Will she really need both to get into art college? Many academic schools don't even offer textiles at GCSE.

KitKatGirl1 · 10/04/2012 18:55

That was my thinking too but I think OP wants dd to do both to maybe put her off? Am paraphrasing!

NotDaphne · 10/04/2012 20:45

I'd never heard of twilight sessions - I'll definitely suggest it. As they're strapped for cash I can't see them rushing to do it but maybe they'd get extra funding for it? Hmmm, I feel a call to the local authority about funding coming on....

I can't imagine her not going on to tertiary education but, to be honest, I don't think she does either. Fashion college is more likely if it truly is her goal - that'll be a brave new world for me because I care less about fashion than most people on this entire planet. I mean, seriously? An entire tertiary organisation just for clothes? (I'm a burden she bears. :) Sometimes I wonder if we share any DNA at all but people say she looks like me so perhaps we do.)

If she didn't have a focus already I could probably convince her to do Art and Design OR Fashion and Textiles but, just as I won't stop my (geeky but in a good way) son doing science and more science when his turn comes, I think she should be allowed to run with it if it is what she wants to do with her life. I read something once that really successful people don't bother trying to be all rounders - they find what they're good at and throw all their energy into being absolutely brilliant at it.

I think what I need to do is lobby the school not to shut doors that would have been open to her were she even 6 months older, or to find her an alternative provider for a fallback subject, and to do everything possible to make sure she comes out with decent Maths and English grades. There doesn't seem to be a problem with the other GCSE subjects, luckily. It's a nice school, with a good feel to it, but it has been coasting for too many years and is blighted by low expectations in key subjects.

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NotDaphne · 10/04/2012 21:11

Sorry, have only just seen the posts above as I hadn't realised it was on p.2 already.

Yes, KitKatGirl1, you got it in 1. If she does both Art & Design and Fashion & Textiles it's a kill or cure - either she'll get it out of her system and do broader A' levels (a good thing if you're not going into a particular field after all) or else she'll know that she was right to choose them and will have a stronger portfolio for Art School or Fashion college as a result. (I'm sorry, I still can't say the phrase 'Fashion college' without wincing. It feels as though the words don't go together - like 'chocolate-coated onion' or 'hairy tongue.')

I wish she could opt out of Welsh but am pretty sure it's as compulsory as it gets - political hot potato and all that. I will check, though.

Okay, so bearing in mind that what you guys say makes a lot of sense, maybe I actually need to be lobbying for her to have the option of History GCSE alongside her A levels if that's what she wants (she'll have a better idea by then) as opposed to having it as a 10th GCSE. That way she'll still have it as an escape route if it's needed but can have the extra time meanwhile for English and Maths. I'd expect that the school is more likely to say yes to that than to changing their Grand Plans generally.

It would be so much easier if this was an issue of Good vs Evil. Or if it was easier to reach a choice of good schools and colleges from here. Oh, you urbanites with luxuries such as tube stations and out of hours hospitals and police stations don't know how lucky you are.... :)

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marriedinwhite · 11/04/2012 09:44

I don't understand why any child needs more than 9 GCSE's (mine have 12 and a prospective 10) and I would happily support the English and Maths to be reinforced in schools - they are fundamental life skills and will be used on a life long basis. I am tired of interviewing graduates with two or three masters degrees who cannot string together grammatically correct sentences orally or in writing, punctuate or work out simple percentages.

Surely the issue is that your dd needs to decide to what extent she needs to keep open her options. I would have thought that a high graded art gcse would keep open the fashion options and that history could be retained to keep that option open at this stage too.

I am pretty sure that if the standards of gcse are made more rigorous as proposed then the numbers will fall any way over the next couple of years.

When I was at school we either did:

English Language, Maths, History, Geography, Biology, French, Chemistry, Physics and either German or Latin - or:

Eng Lang, Eng Lit, Maths, History, Geography, Biology, French, (German or Latin), (Art or domestic science).

We all did RE but our head teacher said that as it was such an easy o'level there was no point having it.

Those who were struggling in the non science groups were allowed to drop either German or Latin to allow them more time to focus on the other subjects.

Was a grammar school and was 1976!

marriedinwhite · 11/04/2012 09:48

On the Art thing, our ds did Art GCSE and is doing it as a higher in 6th form. There has been no talk of add on art subjects and I am assuming that if he wants to take it forward (which I don't think he will) he will have to do a foundation art year and that will provide any add on directional bits that he needs.

We let him and his tutor decide his options. I said to his tutor there was no point in us telling him what to do at 16 because he would only work if he wanted to do it. His tutor sighed and said his life would be so much easier if other parents took the same approach.

You have to let them make their own decisions. We let our ds make his about gcse's (he chose so wisely we didn't argue about the art - hoping the gcse would let him get it out of his system)!

titchy · 11/04/2012 09:58

This might be helpful to you both - and may help you persuade her to drop one of Art or Textiles in favour of History.

And this may give some ideas Smile

sashh · 11/04/2012 10:03

Usng VI formers is a BAD idea. If a child needs extra tuition they need a teacher, someone who has trained to teach.

I wouldn't worry about 1 less GCSE better to have 5 A (or A*) than 10-12 D - G grades.

The best option I would have thought would to suggest 1 - 2 twilight classes. You say you are willing to pay tuition for English and Maths, well that's OK for you but not the kids who can't afford that.

WOuld you and a few other parents pay for a twilight GCSE?

CecilyP · 11/04/2012 11:23

I feel that your DD may simply be too busy with her existing subjects to take on an extra one as a twilight session. Although the entry qualifications to get into Art College are not particularly high, potential students are competing on the quality of their portfolio. Although it depends on the college, most foundation courses cover a bit of everything to do with art and design, so time spent on fashion and textiles may be limited. Just out of curiosity, OP, where did you think fashion designers learned how to be fashion designers?

lelly88 · 11/04/2012 19:40

My son also in year 9 is still doing the modular course for his GCSEs as the exam board WJEC is producing both the end of course exams for England but as education is devolved in Wales, schools can still choose to do the modular courses. Our school has chosen the modular courses. Welsh and RE are both half GCSEs which is quite enough.
Is your school definitely doing the new course?

cardibach · 11/04/2012 22:34

THe Welsh bashing on this thread is more than a bit annoying. Welsh is a valid language, spoken by many in there personal and profassional lives. REsearch shows bilingually educated children do better then those with only one language. I am an English speaker teaching inWales with a bilingual daughter - the Welsh is more of a help than a hinderance.
GOod results in the core are worth more than an extra GCSE. If you feel stringly about history get her to do an evening class, but Id examine the options and leave it be.

NotDaphne · 15/04/2012 08:39

Cardibach, the Welsh issue would not be an issue at all if it was optional. My beef with it is that it is compulsory, as though no place in the world except here exists, since the time it demands therefore limits time available for the learning of skills and knowledge from other subjects.

Wales is a fine place but it is also a very small place in terms of the world and even in terms of it being part of Britain's economy and realistically DD is more likely to use skills learned in something like History throughout the rest of her life than she is to need Welsh. Imagine you were living in Barcelona and your child was obliged to learn Catalan at the expense of another subject. Yes, Catalan is handy if you plan to stay put for the rest of your life, although Barcelona is part of Spain and it is perfectly possibly to get by with just Spanish, but if you are not definitely living in Catalonia later in life then speaking Catalan fluently is not necessarily an educational priority. How is Wales different?

Like you, I have been an English teacher (English as an academic subject and TEFL) and I do agree that learning a language - any language - improves your own English. However, in terms of preparing children to be confident citizens of an increasingly fluid world, we would be better making that other language something that would open as many doors for them as possible. Wales is a tiny place and it is also an English-speaking country and to pretend speaking Welsh matters as far as anyone outside Wales is concerned would be blinkered nationalism, surely?

I've lived in many countries and I have no time for nationalism particularly. Everyone seems to think the country they were born in is the best one in the world without having the insight to wonder if there's a connection between the fact that this country is great and the fact that they come from this country. I choose to live in Wales but the reality is not that it is the most amazing country ever in the history of the entire world, despite what the Welsh government and the crowds of rugby supporters who have never lived anywhere else think.

Looking at it even from the perspective of a teenager who plans to stay in Wales forever and has no interest in looking wider, the system still doesn't necessarily work except for the favoured few. Ironic - we all know it's a good thing to break down barriers to communication yet here we actually make them taller by legal insistence that a language only a minority are fluent in becomes an enormous barrier. We have bilingual schools which upskill (in Welsh) a minority but the reality is that the Welsh education system does not have the infrastructure to create a level playing field by giving all children in Wales the opportunity of being taught in Welsh-language only schools (and therefore to have access to the widest choice of jobs in the Welsh public sector as adults). To promote bilingual education as something that all parents should aspire to is disingenuous because, quite simply, the government cannot provide the service for all children as the Welsh-speaking Science, Maths, PE, RE, IT etc. teachers are not out there in sufficient numbers. I wouldn't hold my breath until that happens, either....

Meeting new legal requirements for bilingualism costs us a fortune in time and other resources at work, despite the fact that English is widely spoken and understood in Wales. The insistence on bilingualism is not meeting a need - it's creating one, and at the expense of funding that could go into other elements of schools, hospitals, police or social services. As an anthropologist I'd say that's great but as an onlooker who has no stake in defending the bilingualism of anyone I hold dear, it looks crazy...and it is being done with my taxes!

Sorry if this comes across to you as Welsh bashing but to me it is horses for courses. If your horse runs well on one track, fine, go for it, but don't stop mine doing what's right for her. Insisting on Welsh at GCSE, to me, seems parochial and small-world - it is the Welsh Government's job to do its best for children in Wales but surely not at the expense of narrowing their educational/career options more than those of other British children for reasons which smack of propaganda.

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NotDaphne · 15/04/2012 08:40

Lelly88, they are indeed doing the new course.

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NotDaphne · 15/04/2012 09:13

sashh, I agree with most of your points. 6th formers aren't option 1 but they can be an effective tool amongst a range to be used.

As for kids whose parents can't afford tuition, I agree too. Unfortunately that's not within my control; all I can do is react to the decision the school has made and to try to achieve a plan of action that works best for my own child - unless I win the lottery and can pay for all the kids to have tuition, there's little I can do about everyone else and it's up to the school and the parents to make their decisions. I have no problem with those parents who see the new plans working better for their child then benefiting from them. I'm pushing for their new system to be optional so that those parents who know it's not suited for their child can continue to have the wider range of GCSE's (with the onus being on us to make it work), or else for the old system to remain in place with the school finding alternative ways of beefing up Maths and English.

I do also agree that it is also better to have a core of good GCSE grades than a wider range of mediocre ones. What I am trying to prevent is the closing of doors as a result of the school's reduction in the number of GCSE's they will let my DD's year take. She has already decided her future lies in the world of fashion, which is good on one hand because kids are encouraged to get a focus early on in a world of competitive employment but bad because it complicates things. As a parent, I would like to know she has enough GCSE's to have the option of changing her mind - as many teenagers will - a couple of years down the line, once she's done Fashion & Textiles/Art & Design at GCSE level and has a better idea of whether she wants to stay on that path.

Under the new system she has one fewer GCSE than last year's students and than her peers in many schools around the UK, and the option she has reluctantly dropped is History. (It was sprung on us a day or so before options evening so we really had very little time before the deadline to chew through what it all meant.) If she comes to realise over the next few years that maybe her future career path isn't what she thought it was, and decides to do another subject instead - say, History, which she does enjoy - she will find it harder to get into a good 6th form or degree course to do it. I know she could drop one of her GCSE options in favour of History but what if she is right and this is what she does for the rest of her life?

If she was good at Maths or Science I wouldn't dream of forcing her to drop, say, Physics, in exchange for a more general subject so she could get a really broad range of GCSE's; instead I'd be congratulating her on knowing where she's going in life. As Fashion is considered to be more lightweight, my instinct is to limit her emphasis on it but, realistically, it's a huge industry and there are good careers out there for those with passion. She's not, I suspect, the next Coco Chanel and getting into it at tertiary level will require a lot of work so the more grounding she can get in relevant subjects at GCSE level, to build up her portfolio, the better.

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NotDaphne · 15/04/2012 09:39

CecilyP, I agree, fashion designers do learn to be fashion designers at fashion college (...I just wish my daughter wanted to be a biochemist or an architect, pushy mother that I am.) Since she doesn't, I want to support her choice but, as a good mother, I also need to make sure her options stay open.

It wouldn't have been such a problem if the school hadn't suddenly decided to drop a GCSE subject because it got such a dire inspectors' report for English and Maths last month. I believe there's more than one way to skin a cat and the school's plans are limiting and a knee-jerk reaction and I am meeting with the headteacher later this month to say so.

If the school had warned us in advance we could have discussed it rationally with my DD and won her over to the concept of broader GCSEs then narrowing focus with A' levels and a Foundation course. Instead, she spent months planning her options and, until a couple of days before the options evening, she was all set to do Art & Textiles, Fashion & Design, French and History. We didn't fuss about the fashion focus because it looked broad enough generally and, as I've said, she knows what she wants for a career. Suddenly she had to lose one GCSE so she chose to drop History, as she sees it as the least relevant to her career in future. (I know she could learn French outside of school but at 14 she lacks the maturity to make it happen.)

The more time I've had to think through what the school is doing, the more angry I get. I would have fought tooth and claw to influence their plans while they were still being formulated, if only we'd been consulted, simultaneously using the time to work on my DD to persuade her to her reshape her own plans. Instead it was sprung on us and now all I can do is attempt damage limitation. I wrote to the head teacher with my concerns and have a meeting with her (her initial one was cancelled as she was unwell) but, realistically, I can't imagine a great outcome as by the end of the month we're talking 6+ weeks after options evening. I don't intend to force my DD to change her options; it is her life to live and there is nothing less likely to get good educational results than being forced to do a subject and feeling you have been robbed of something about which you are passionate.

So, as I first posted, I am after creative ideas for boosting Maths and English provision that don't require a school to stump up extra money, so that I can attempt to convince the headteacher that she can still boost English and Maths without students having to lose a GCSE. My Plan B will be to get the school to agree to allow her to do History as a GCSE alongside her A levels, if she realises in hindsight that it is something she should have done.

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NotDaphne · 15/04/2012 09:44

titchy, marriedinwhite and others, thanks for your suggestions too. Thanks

This is not a simple yes/no situation and I value everyone's input because you give me good ideas and force me to shape my arguments - even if I disagree with what you say, simply justifying my position forces me to be more clear and structured about what I am trying to achieve and why.

Hooray for mumsnet.

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