Outstanding state secondary or grammar?

[flusteredandtired2]

Two bright children, one particularly so. What do you think; send them both to local 'outstanding' comp or move out of county and try for closest grammars? I'm trying not to give too much away with regards to our area incase mums who recognize me disapprove of the mere suggestion of grammar schools.

Depends if you can afford it

I'd give my right arm to be in catchment for outstanding comp

Not sure why you'd move tbh

We chose the comp which at the time was not rated outstanding over the grammar. Have never regretted the decision.

if they are so 'bright' get the scholarships to the local independent schools thus freeing up places for less 'bright' children

We are moving to get into the right place for a good comp!

Are the grammar schools fee-paying private schools or are you talking about moving to a grammar school area?

TBH I would go for the local comp, whatever the answer, I'm just being nosy really

If you have an outstanding school why go throguh the hassle of moving? Is there something you don't like about the comp?

DD2 has chosen to go to the good comp rather than try for the grammar, which would have meant very long days.

I think being amongst the brightest there will suit her far better than being lost in the crowd at the grammar school. She likes a little lime light, but wouldn't get it at a school where they've all got grade 5 this and drama award that.
She is outwardly very confident, but actually quite easily discouraged. Success breeds success was coined for DD2.

Of course, only time will tell if it's the right decision.

We have local o/s comp, and sent DS to ooc v high achieving grammar- to me no comparison. But...... he is only child, we have to accomodate the early starts, leave home just after seven.... It's not for everyone. He would have done ok at the comp, but he has been offered additional opportunities at school which make the effort worthwhile.

Yes if DD2 hadn't already got a sister at the comp. She wouldn't have been offered the choice (DD1 is dyslexic and actually at least as bright as DD2, but she learnt to read in Y6)

I do know of one girl who dropped out of a super selective grammar because the commute was too far. I was a bit surprised that she used good language but didn't always understand the words she used.
If the comp is big enough then I don't see the advantage to go to a grammar. But you need to look at the individual schools and judge them appropriately

I would have a good look at the local comp - looking further ahead, the range of subjects offered at GCSE and A level; trips, sport etc and compare that to the potential grammar. TBH if you live in a non selective area, there will be a lot of bright kids at the comp. Not sure what would happen if you move and the kids for whatever reason don't get into the grammar - exam disasters do happen!

We live in a non selective area but in DD2s outstanding comp she can still do Latin etc and the top couple of sets are easily grammar school standard. My DD1 commutes to a grammar far away. On balance I think the grammar is the school I prefer but that is mainly because of the behaviour and the range of trips etc. It is also half the size of the comp and the customer service aspects are a lot better on the whole. Academically I think she would have done well at either school.

I live in a selective area and it's painful to see some very bright children not getting in. After all it's all down to one test.

Luckily I have the option of sending my DC to a fantastic comprehensive which provides them with the education I ideally want them to receive.

In your shoes I would go for the comprehensive,but I would also say stuff all the other mothers and what they might think.

Quite simply, it depends on the child.
How would they cope with the grammar school pressure?
How self-motivated/competitive are they to work hard at a comp where they may not be being pushed?
How easily led are they if at a school which has pupils that do not want to learn?

DD1 is in yr10 at a 'good, with many outstanding features' comp.

The year group is split into 2 random halves and set within each, so around 30% in top sets. So I would a think the top sets contain a wider range of ability than a grammar school.
On the whole, it suits her as she is not easily led and wants to do well.
She was at a private, selective (7-18) junior school. but we mved her for year 7 - partly for financial reasons, partly because she hated the pressure.

DD2 is in yr4 at a 'good' state primary school.
She is easily as bright as DD1 (although shines more in different subject areas). Don't know what she would be like under pressure as never tried. Seriously considering entering her for a super-selective, but she 'does not see the point'. Gut feeling is that she could easily go off the rails if sent to the school her sister is at or similar.

We're sort of in this situation. Well not quite, we already live in a grammar school area. Am going to go and have a good look at the comprehensive. It's very hard. Our problem is that school think ds2 has a good chance of getting him, but I'm not at all convinced it's the right school for him.

Thanks to everyone for such honest responses. My DS was enthusiastic and working ahead of his peers until about 18mnths ago when he began to lose interest, saying the work was easy, repetitive and boring. He is VERY easily led and is rapidly becoming the class clown to 'impress' others. He does his work too quickly just to finish and then plays games! He needs direction, discipline and good teaching. My DD is amazing. Masters new concepts immediately and doesn't need a second explanation and her enthusiasm know no bounds - yet. I don't want this to wear off through tedium, boredom, repetition or spending her day 'helping' the less able, which she and her brother do already! She needs stimulation, likeminded children and lots of new experiences to grab hold of. I toured the comp and found it very laid back, has a lot of trainee teachers and is very into helping the less able and providing extra resources for them. This is such a difficult decision as you never know if you're doing the right thing. Yes, some do do very well at the comp but I would hope that more do better at the grammar (and no it's not fee paying). Scholarships in our area offer about 15% off the fees - not enough for us to even consider!

I think it's important to consider the type of child you have. Like a poster above said, a child who is very bright at primary can get lost amongst the super-bright if the school is a very selective one. It's just as easy for some DCs to give up because they think they're not good enough as it is for others to cruise if they are not challenged.

Would you be moving to a grammar school area or going for a grammar school that is mostly surrounded by comps?

If its the sort of grammar school that has no catchment area as many of them do, I'd be inclined to put the oldest one in for the test and move if they got in.

I wouldn't move away from an outstanding comp to an area where it was all grammar schools and high schools, because I don't think the benefit would be great enough to make it worth moving and there would be likely to be the same level of distraction as at a comp, but it may be worth if it's one of the particularly high achieving grammar schools. If it is one of the higer achieving grammar schools, I wouldn't move until you had the place, because a lot of very intelligent children who deserve a place just don't get on as they are so over subscribed.

I went to a very well respected grammar school and to be honest it was terrible. Lots of very bright girls who would do well whatever and so the teachers just didn't bother to make it interesting. We all got excellent exam results but at the expense of 7 tedious years. So don't assume that the grammar will necessarily be more demanding - after all they will all still sit the same exams at the same ages.

Chocolatecrispies, your grammar sounds just the same as the one I went to! It bears no comparison to the excellent education my DCs are getting at their comp. And I mean all-round - academic, sport, music, drama, DofE, exchanges, curriculum-linked trips, sport-llinked trips ...

Its funny how you mention the differences between your two DCs, would you consider maybe sending one to grammar school and one not if thats what they wanted?

I teach in a selective area (at an 'outstanding' comp') and we get loads of DC that have siblings at the two local grammars, but they themselves didn't want to take the test. They often come out with very comparable exam results too.

Our two local grammars are single-sex and I think that you can definitely see an effect, the girls do really well at the school and the school itself attracts good teachers and has strong leadership. I have friends that teach at the boys school and they are constantly shocked at the standard of some of the teachers. I also do private tuition and two of my pupils are boys from the grammar who do not feel that the standard of teaching in this particular subject is good enough (in fact in recent exam results their year group did not do as well as our top 3 sets, which are of similar ability).

I think you have to find out more about the teaching at the grammar, do you know people that go there rather than just looking around? Do they seem to offer a full range of subjects at GCSE and A Level too, rather than just the more 'academic' ones? I would also consider the extra-curricular side of it. Our local grammar schools are very pushy on certain sports and music to the exclusion of lots of other interests.

Good luck!

Depends on the children and the grammars.

From what you've said of both your dcs I'd say they sound better suited to a good grammar - but not all grammars are better than all comps. My dh sounds like your ds and he was failed by a good comp - too easy to get away with cruising and not working to the best of your ability in a comp. My dd is like your dd and is loving the challenge of her grammar - was v bored at primary as always far too easy - depends on the grammar though.

I'd agree with checking options for later - check that triple sciences, languages etc are available acc to your priorities - Latin was important to me so was one of the things I looked for; not available in many comps. You really need t visit and speak to as many parents as poss with kids at both preferred schools to guage where your dc would flourish more.

We moved to be in catchment for a the grammar (well, semi-selective actually) for my dd - who cares what other mums think. It's your dc and you know what's right for them.

I'm finding this amazing. I have very few/any (?) friends around me (relocated just before DC1) and to have this sudden 'network' of intelligent, balanced, non-judgmental mums to 'talk' to is so helpful. Trust me, you don't mention grammar schools at our primary or indies for that matter, you do not push or encourage as "we're all going to the same local outstanding comp anyway so why worry!". I've had some really useful advice from everyone and I'm really grateful. Thank you.

TRicky. I'm a grammar school parent so probably have a biased view.

Locally. the grammar schools are superselective and IMHO this turns the "comps" into secondary modern schools of the old model- with a high vocational/apprenticeship bias and little to offer the academic high fliers that either chose not to try for grammar or didn't make it. An over generalisation- there is one locally that is " academic" in reputation but that is it.

My mate does have truly comprehensive schools in her area and they are great.THey have to cater to the academic children because they all go there as well as the less academically able. It seems to work.

Grammar school entry is varyingly competitive (some schools taking every child who gets above a certain test mark and others just taking the highest scorers down till they are full- often a very close cohort of marks).Don't move to a grammar area is you have any concerns that your kids may have a bad day or wont wan to sit 11+. The pressure is there I guess. Work is fast paced and not repeated/recapped like at other schools. Extra curricular areas are strong too and kids do juggle both pretty easily.

In your situation TBH I'd probably stick with a really good comp

hi
I,m on the 5 th child through a "good" catholic comp.Even my 5th child now recognises the two tier system grammar school ed presents.If religion isn't a priority get them to a grammar at all costs especially the boys!They aim for the top.Reputation will mean it is in the schools interest to up grades.Opportunities and aspirations,confidence......oh I could go on and on....the energy required to achieve in comp is unbelievable from parents and children alike e.g teachers now not providing revision classes as"budget cuts"so pupils hung out to dry!of course the dedicated hardworking committed teachers are in the comps/state but they are the exception and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.The world is an unfair place but that is reality.
It's tough being the unpopular parent
and you will make no friends.Is that more important than regrets for easy decisions .

Flustere I would be careful when it comes to year 6, and the hypocrites among those with no older siblings. If there are any Independents etc. around, you will find a few are sneaking off, or having days off when the entrance exams are on.

If there are no grammars around, a big enough Comp can have quite an ethos of achievement in the top sets. But it has to be one with heads who push and celebrate achievement (whatever form it takes). Motheroffives experience is very different to mine, my DS has lots of revision classes, life in the top sets is very stretching. But if you are in a grammar area, the comps would be lucky to be able to do anything like as well.

To be honest it depends on how bright they are my mates child has just got in to a grammar school he scapped by he was on the reserve list

She had to put him in summer school and he has 2 hours of tutoring a day and he still didn't get the mark I think he will struggle with the work load

A child like this I feel would of been better at the local outstanding church school

If your child is nt very very bright they won't get a better education at the grammar they will just be behind

On the other hand my son atteneds a outstanding secondrey which is in the top 25% of schools in the uk last year they had two attened Cambridge one won a scholarship to MIT in the states and the h ave 89% a-c pass rate in the core subjects