Very able dd stuck in set 9 of 11 - exams could pull her up but how can I get her to buckle down?

[LieInsAreRarerThanTigers]

Dd left primary last year with a superb report, top of her year in English (5a), top set for maths (5c), very able all round but remarkable in her creative writing, with good spelling, vocab etc. 2 weeks into secondary she did some tests then at October half-term she gets her sets for the coming academic year and shock! horror - she has done rather badly and is in set 9 out of 11 in both maths and English (and therefore all subjects).

We have been having a lot of emotional trauma at home, especially around the time she went to secondary (nearly bailed out to a hotel the night before as dh was drunk and bullying) I was still shocked that things could have gone so badly wrong and phoned the head of year as well as writing to the head of maths and English to say what had happened, sent a copy of her primary school report, got teacher to write in, but they absolutely refused to budge saying I should have told them beforehand that there were problems at home.

She has been doing very well in English and is 'recommended' for moving up to the middle sets, but staying where she is in maths, where they are doing work she could have done in year 5 without much effort.

I have just found out she has exams in 2 weeks' time and is on a school netball trip from the Friday to Sunday just before...so we have 7 days to revise and give her another chance at moving into a group working at her true ability level. She is gutted at where she is, but how can I get her to bear this in mind every minute she is revising? I am prepared to sit and work with her although she gets very stroppy.

I am still convinced the school has got it wrong and she won't necessairly be able to pull herself up as her self-esteem and confidence has been shaken by this as well as the family problems. I feel let down by the school and like I am watching a strong young tree wither and die for lack of nurturing...

Keep positive, work consistently every night at the maths. Schools do get the sets wrong, if she moved in English she can do it in Maths as well. She should stand out like a sore thumb.
My son started in set 4 put there because of his SEN he has worked himself to top 10 of set 1, took him 2 years -he started this school year in set 1. He was getting 90+ in all tests while set average was 75, so she really will stand out. Our school doesn't like moving sets mid year, although they had to last year after Xmas term.
Good luck to her, tell her to enjoy the top position as she rises up the sets

Make sure you know what the exam will cover! Mid year exams don't always cover everything.

Is it a selective school or a comp?

She needs to do well in the exams and then her marks/ability will be taken into account. Why have you only just found out she has exams in two weeks' time.

Are you making sure she completes every homework thoroughly and to the best of her ability because the grades for this will be taken into account too.

What are the general standards at the school like. 5c isn't that brilliant for maths and there could have lots of children who had reached at least 5a or higher when she arrived if it is a sought after school. It does sound huge though with 11 forms of entry, that must be 330 children per year.

Thank you for your comments. We are working on the maths daily and have done some science and geog revision over the weekend.

Yes indeed marriedinwhite the school has 330 children per year, which is a large but not unusually large comp - I know of several similar or bigger (but this one has no sixth form) It is a highly sought after 'outstanding' comp, not selective in its intake but very rigidly streamed for teaching as you can see!

I do monitor her homework and overall she has been getting 'quite' good marks, completing (almost) all homework and getting quite a lot of A's, but she is definitely not working to the best of her ability - partly as I have said I think her confidence has been knocked, also perhaps she doesn't want to stick out as the swot in the set she is in...she has been quite traumatised by this and is not approaching the issue in a calm logical fashion which a calm logical adult might do: work harder and get moved up. Simple but a bit idealist! Her presentation is awful, she has tried to get what prestige and enjoyment she can from the social side of school where she used to get a bit of kudos from being top, so this distracts her from putting her all into her work (she tends to rush)

I am coaxing her to look for how to get maximum marks in tests/assessments. She is one of those very bright children who is a bit disorganised and not a natural exam performer. I think I was naive in assuming the school would give her some credit for this and train her in better exam performance. It annoys me that they have totally ignored what went before and everything I have said about the family situation! Anyone who knows her would realise something was seriously wrong when she took those papers.

With a 5c she should be in set 3 or 4 for maths. Unfortunately she only got about a 4a on the tests they did 2 weeks in. She is working with a text book 'for students working towards level 4 by the end of year 7' - breaks my heart.

Forget the SATS level.

Can she nail all the work in the level 4 text book she has? If she can't, then she needs to work through that book so she can. When I say nail, I looked to getting 75% of each section right - most people make silly mistakes in Maths.

If she can and she had a 4a in her test recently, ask the school why she has that book when she has proved to the school she is a 4a already. Why is she not working from a 'let's have a look at level 5' Maths textbook?

Agree with the above poster that if she has achieved level 4a then she should be on the level 5 Maths book now. HTH

Yes she can definitely get 75% + on all the stuff in the textbook (silly mistakes included!) They are apparently doing some work not in the textbook, so presumably some level 5 work. But surely the top sets are working towards level 6 - how is she ever going to catch up?

Incidentally, maths is the only subject where she even has a textbook! (There was a thread about this the other day - apparently they are not used nearly as much these days)

Re. textbooks. My two often used textbooks in class but only Maths ever came home. I agree with you! I wish they had more access to them but maybe I am just old fashioned.

Re: Maths. If she was a 4a and they are now working on level 5 work that sounds fine to me. What is the reason for the level 4 textbook - revision and to be changed soon to a level 5? Even in SATS exam she was only 5c and there is a lot of level 5 work to cover before she is a 6. She can 'catch up' by doing more than is required of her. Or, do what is required of her and - probably - never catch up with top set. Remember though, many top setters were 5a in SATS and quite possibly level 6 actually, it's just SATS don't go that high (AFAIK).

Level 5 are GCSE Grade E questions and, AFAIK, 6 Grade D, 7 Grade C etc. Maybe, if she thinks of it more that way, you can all concentrate on where she is, rather than where others are.

Tell her it's temporary. It's a set back and everyone has them. It's how you handle them that counts. if she wants to be moved up, she has to tolerate being the swot in set 9. She has to show the teachers she can do this stuff eyes closed and standing on her head and if others reject her for getting on, well, she can judge for herself how much respect their opinions are due.
Give her as much support and encouragement as you can. Check that all her homework is complete, checked and handed in on time. Buy some course books for the right KS, from WH Smith, so that if she's stuck, you have some clear guidelines at home to refer to. (I use them for maths as my maths is dreadful and they are so clear.)

With Creative Writing, encourage her to look outside the school - there's the National poetry website that posts poems by children, and loads of places run competitions locally and nationally. If she gets published, or any positive feedback, she can show the school. If not, she's still learning to work for herself, for her own pleasure of self-development and not relying on the school for a sense of her own value in the world. Let her see one bad assessment does mean she is worth less than she was at her old school.

It's such a danger area. This is where comps can fail bright children. There's a huge incentive to act up, play dumb and get kudos from your peers in ways other than by excelling. Do absolutely everything in your power to stop that from happening. Talk to her about it. And talk to the school. If they say you should have discussed problems at home, discuss them now. Be frank about how that one assessment fell at a very bad time and you're worried her motivation and self esteem are in steep decline. Ask precisely what targets she needs to meet, and by when, in order to get moved up a set. If they're vague about it, keep asking.

Sorry - my whole post to you has sounded bossily prescriptive. But it's one of those red flags: bright children being ground into mediocrity by schools that won't listen to you or your child's previous history. It's a 'computer says no' mentality and it could damage her long term. Fight it. Help her fight back against it. Make it silly that she's in that group. And reward her massively for moving up a group in English.

Thank you for your encouragement. We are getting there slowly I think - she is just not quite mature enough to see things as I do and she procrastinates terribly before settling to any revision! Tonight and Sunday night are our last opportunities to prepare for the Monday exams.
I am waiting for a call back from her maths teacher for some information about the exams and details about targets and attainment levels and why she has a level 4 textbook!
Re: the problems at home, I don't think there was any more I could have done. I was unfortunately in a very frazzled emotional state at the time and having written a very articulate and persuasive letter (I think) I just broke down in tears when talking to the head of year, so she probably just thought 'hysterical pushy middle class parent ashamed of thick daughter'!

Still waiting...

I broke down a bit last week talking to school about my son's dyslexia. They deal with children all the time and should know how some things cause very emotional reactions from parents. Some scream and shout, others - like you and me - go the opposite way!

And your daughter ceratinly isn't thick! Even if she were level 4 now, she wouldn't be that, and it seems she is working on level 5. In English, at SATS year 6, she scored what my daughter did at the end of year 9!

Try to work with her rather than let your stress pass to her. If she is revisng and lacking concentration, try smaller bursts. Not everyone can revise for a long time in one go. Even at GCSE I think they recommend 20-30 minutes a revision session before a break. I wouldn't be surprised if - for a year 7 not used to it - she may find 10-15 minutes too much. But stamina builds.

We had a five months before my daughters Maths GCSE. Working, we thought, at a potential Grade C level, she scored E in a mock and then another E on a paper she took just to test if the first one was right. She had five months to do it in. At first, she would try some questions, but others would flummox her so much she would roll her answer paper in a ball and stab holes in it with a pencil. Or she would write I HATE MATHS on the sheets! But, she carried on. We found a way of laughing about it together and she battled, some every night. She had to given the short timeframe. But, she did it, she got her C. We both wish now we had kept those first stabbed sheets of paper. It is a result she will always be proud of.

So, be consistent and work as a team 9i.e you giveing her questions, marking and generally supporting her. She has the luxury of time and even if she doesn't nail next weeks test, keep going - slowly but surely. Turn negatives into positives. She is an able kid.

Thanks. Hoping maths teacher might call after 3:15...
Have been to WH SMith to buy maths and English KS3 workbooks, just to give me an idea of what the tests might be. Wish I had done that in October but the bad results were so out of the blue - I never thought she would be in anything but top set for English and above average for maths.

If the letter doesn't work- kick up a fuss. Who cares what they think of you- your DD deserves the best chance she can get, especially starting at a new school- the worst thing for a bright child is to coast for a year. I would be fuming- how many other mistakes of this kind do they make, and no one contests?

Quirrel I did kick up a fuss after the letter and spoke to head of maths (who was very sympathetic and seemed as though they agreed that being in that set would be damaging for her self-esteem and progress in maths), head of Engilsh and head of year. I don't know who made the ultimate decision that she would stay put - seemed to me it would be an administrative difficulty more that anything to move her. They tried to tell me it would be 'unfair' but at that stage nobody knew the sets except the children/parents themselves, so that was rubbish.

I think there is a bit of a risk in being thought of as a pushy or difficult parent - it could make the school less likely to listen to me as time goes on and therefore have a negative effect on dd - then ds to follow as soon as she leaves! (He is a completely different kettle of fish...)
The maths teacher did eventually call me back and agrees that dd is not working quite as hard as she should be, but no 'alarm bells'. She has just been assessed at a 4a for her term's work, and apparently they don't use the textbook very much. He made an interesting comment that primary schools often assess the pupils at higher levels than they really are - this was one of the things I found upsetting/frustrating - that secondary teachers don't seem to have much respect for their colleagues in primary, whereas I feel primary teachers know their pupils' true abilities/potential in far more detail. (Especially when you are talking about first/second term of year 7 compared to her year 6 primary teacher)

Speaking as a primary school teacher of Years 5 and 6, I can say that, although we teach all aspects of Level 4 and 5 thoroughly, we have also been using "testbase" questions all year to prepare them for the Year 6 SATs. The children have, therefore, to some extent been coached to do well in the tests and will no doubt forget some of what has been covered by the time they get to their secondary schools.

It is normal for children to slip back a sub level, although this is rarely acknowledged by senior management who like to make out it's the teacher's fault. When the children go to secondary school the teachers are, for once, free to level them honestly as they are not so tightly bound by prior results.

Although I'm not saying that your daughter wasn't a 5c in the summer, there is a chance that she really has slipped back a bit without the intensive support that she would have been receiving in a more nurturing primary school environment.

If there are 11 sets then she probably isn't getting anywhere near as much attention as she would have been in primary school, especially if she is grouped with lower ability children.

I would keep doing what you're doing - extra practise at home and make sure that you're familiar with the Key Stage 3 objectives. If things don't improve by Year 8, maybe look at a bit of tutoring if possible.

Also (it's my first year in Year 6) we are teacher assessing the writing this year. We have been told that the level which will go down will be the highest level that they have reached that year (as long as it's not a sudden jump of two whole levels or something) as, SMT claim, they have been "Working towards" that level and so we will put down their best score.

A LOT of primary school levelling is based on making the school look good, which doesn't always help out the children... Although I suspect this isn't the case with English (although, again, allow for a slight drop) her maths was possibly the very best she could have done, rather than her general ability, which may be being reflected at secondary school.

Thanks Seren that's really interesting. My mum taught this age group but retired just when all the SATs and levels came in...pity I don't have a bit more insight into this kind of thing.

I am really surprised that there are 11 different sets. I realise it is a big school but still seems odd that they are able to differentiate so specifically and by subject already in year 11 - or is it just for maths and english?
Is it possible that some of the sets ( eg perhaps sets 3&4) are actually working at the same level and the number of sets is a factor of timetabling ??
Is it a co-ed school? Not wishing to worry you further but I remember a thread on here some time ago when a parent discovered that sets were 'adjusted' to ensure an equal split of boys and girls with the result that many girls were in lower sets than they should have been to enable boys to be in higher sets.

I'd imagine, also, that there are around 5 'sets' but two classes of each set.

When I was at Secondary School, we had 'x' and 'y' 1-5. X1 and Y1 were the same ability level, but opposite timetabling.

I agree with fiftyval that you may be attributing more to the set number than needed. I have a dd in Y7 and they are placed in sets for Maths, but apart from the "top set" who are doing level 6 work and the "support set" all the other classes appear to be following the same learning programme and doing the same work.

They are placed in their maths and English sets for subjects which are vaguely related, so humanities are based on English, science and technology on maths. Not sure what happens if someone is outstanding in one particular subject, e.g. a bilingual student in their modern language? There really are 11 ability-rated sets in maths and English - the head of year confirmed this as she said she teaches the 'set below' dd's for maths.
I am a bit vague on exactly where the syllabus changes - there are 3 'bands', with four sets in the top two and three in the 3rd. dd is in 3.1 for both maths and English. I think they are teaching easier stuff to the 3rd band, so she is actually missing out on material and I wonder whether she will ever catch up.

Interesting question about boys - hadn't occurred to me but I would be shocked if that were the case - perhaps I had better find out!

In our school languages and English were together on the curriculum and a French lad was in English set 4 (of 5), so he was in a low French set too. They differentiated work in French and it was, of course, very important his English skills were appropriately adjusted for.

Did he learn much in French? Probably not as he was a native speaker but he didn't half fly at GCSE! I think he struggled more with nailing the exact exam technique to make sure he got the A* than anything else.