Did you see your DCs references for indie secondary school?

[banditqueen]

I'm sure I've read on here that if your DC is at a state primary you can ask to see any info they hold about them under either the freedom of information act or the data protection act (can't remember which...)

So have any of you asked to nose at references they have written and succeeded?

I've been told by DS' primary that they can't let me see these, so before I make a twat of myself and put it in writing quoting The Law, can you please reassure me that this is definitely correct and they will need to hand them over (even while understandably grumbling about it)

Fair enough. It's not a very interesting topic.

I must just be more nosy that most mumsnetters then.

I didn't see ds's. You can use the freedom of information act though but they can charge you to see them (can't see why they would though).

Thanks LadySybil, I'd be happy to part with a few quid just to see!

You should be able to. If your son has been offered a place then you don't really need to see it though?

Yep I know LadySybil, but I'm a 'bee in my bonnet' sort of person...

I asked for the refs ages ago (in writing) and seeing them would have been helpful in preparation for a couple of interviews and possibly part of an explanation for DS in why he did and didn't get called for interview at various schools. I was given no reason until now for why they didn't show me, and if the school are fobbing me off when really I have a right to see them, then I think it is in the interests of parents next year that I call them up on it.

It does worry me that they are so keen that I don't see - makes me think they might have been rushed off... In which case, again it would benefit parents next year if I don't just drop it and skulk off...

But you're absolutely right, it makes no difference to DS now!

IME, state schools are not particularly experienced in writing references for private schools, especially when they don't know your child at all. I'd let this drop though to be honest, you'll be fighting a whole system. Think about your son and where he is now.

I too am curious to know what heads write in references. Lets say 5 children apply to a school, two get in, one a waiting list place and 2 turned down how much influence has the reference had especially as in most prep schools the head has made the recommendation that you apply to that particular school in the first place. Logic would tell you that there not going to then write a rubbish ref! Is it more what they don't say than what they do say? Also prep schools publish their leavers destinations and obviously are keen for as many as possible to go to prestigious schools so does this effect you reference writing. On the other hand if the head writes in his ref that Johny is a keen cricket player and he doesn't know one end of the bat from the other then the school will think he's an idiot. I'm only familiar with 13+ entries but as many schools only use a short period of time for the interview schools so must be relying quite heavily on this ref. I never asked to see ours and was never that bothered but it does seem a rather on process.

I got to see the reference written by a state school for an indie. I only got a glimse of it, rather than a copy.

I also made sure that I provided plenty of detailed facts about DS's extra curricular activities, so that the state school - who had no experience of writing these types of references - would have enough knowledge of DS to write a "strong" reference.

Not worth making a fuss about if your DS got in. If he didn't, it is worth checking what was written. If you are still waiting to hear, you could think of providing your own (strictly factual) information if the reference is incomplete or inaccurate.

I haven't seen them, no. I wouldn't ask, I think there is value in the school being able to put the reference on a "professional to professional" basis without having to dress it up for parents.

Put it this way, when the state school ds was in (year 5) wrote a reference, he didn't get a place at the school I wanted to move him to (Hogwarts). I moved him to a private school but explained that he was being very badly bullied in the state school, which is why I needed to move him. They didn't ask for a reference. When the school I moved him to in year 6 wrote him a reference for the same school I wanted him to move to (Hogwarts), he was offered a place. (it's not really Hogwarts).

The can't charge you to see them, just charge you to photocopy etc. I think the correct form is that you have to write to the Chair of Governors.

(Lady Sybil I was just about to PM you as my kids would love to go to Hogwarts.)

I half agree with you Bletchley, but for all the reasons happygardening mentions, it is in a prep school's interests to spend time writing a strong reference. Rather than this be yet another area in which prep school kids are advantaged, maybe the possibility of a parent seeing would make a state school more likely to write an equally thoughtful reference?

I think you should be able to see it under the data protection act by making a data subject access request in which case they can charge you (about a tenner I think) and make you wait upto 28 days for the information. In order to avoid the school wasting a load of time and money you should be specific about what you want or someone might have to collate all the data the school have on your child.

The only problem I can foresee is that I presume schools have no actual obligation to write references. I think if people made a big issue of references state school heads might refuse to write them in future.

Some schools do charge to have references written, because it is outside the class teacher contract. DCs school just asks for a rough idea of how many and plenty of warning, because sometime some teachers get a lot to do (mainly year 6, but about 20 kids go private and some apply to 3-5 different schools or even more).

You are entitled to see them if you want.

However, it does undermine the system: when we looked round Eton the admissions tutor said that they had had to reduce the reliance they place on the prep school reference because so many heads were being pressurized by parents into giving over-optimistic references. This can do no-one any good.

It is in the prep schools' interests to be as positive as they can without completely undermining their credibility with the senior schools. I would leave well alone unless you have very serious and well-founded doubts

Been thinking about this its just not done to ask to see your DC's reference anymore than I would ask to see a reference for a job which I applied for.
vixsaitis does this mean that the computer generated test will have even more influence? The interview is only 8-10 minutes and I don't see how anyone whoever experienced can make a decision in that time. Or maybe like Win Coll they will have to restrict the number of applicants so more time can be given over to the interview.

My DCs are at prep school and we are not allowed to see the reference. We do have to fill in a very detailed questionnaire with info about extra curricular stuff done from home (they are at day school) though. (The children are encouraged from year 3 onwards to participate in as much extra curricular stuff as possible and build a "CV"). The reason given is, as stated before, the professional relationship with the senior schools and maintenance of credibility. If they say Billy is suited to this school and it turns out to be a disaster, the prep school feel some responsibility. St Pauls does not pre test, just interviews after the report has been sent, relying on the prep school to say the child is academic enough and will fit in. I think reports should be private, as we all wear rose tinted spectacles when it comes to our children, and what we see at home may not necessarily be what teachers see at school!

Heads of prep schools are geared up to write positive-but-accurate references to senior schools, and it is not necessary for parents to see these.

But the OP writes about a reference from a state school, perhaps written by someone who has very little contact with the senior school and is less knowledgable than a prep school head would be about what the school is looking for.

In this case, it is reasonable for the parent to take an active part in providing information that the school may not have; and even to ask see the reference. OP, you could consider asking to see it informally, rather than to be provided with a copy.

Lots of interesting comments on here and thank you for advice all. I know it is only curiosity and bloody mindedness on my part, as it won't make any odds now and school place is sorted.

I think I quite like the idea of undermining the system vixsatis as I think it would be preferable and fairer if schools went by the exam performance (if they are selective that is) rather than use interviews and reports, which will inevitably reproduce race and class inequalities to some extent.

Prep schools have to be honest but fair in their reports. They are taken very seriously by the receiving school especially if the school has sent a few children there over the years. The prep school can't afford to lose it's credibility and also sometimes parents do put children forward for schools which the teachers don't feel will suit them (more likely for 11+ then 13+). I remember the High master of St Paul's answering this question a few years back on a Q&A session - he said they were important but he knew a few prep heads who talked up too many of their pupils and he had had to speak to that head and took his references with a pinch of salt.

@banditqueen - why would interviews and reports reproduce race and class inequalities?

Now I feel like I should have academic studies to back up my point... I don't.

Dapplegrey I think that because they are subjective, the prejudices of those writing / reading reports and conducting interviews will play a part in their judgement. I'm not suggesting that those making the decisions are necessarily more prejudiced than the rest of society.

That's why state schools don't allow interviews isn't it?

@banditqueen. Thank you for answering my question.

banditqueen at my DS very selective boys boarding the interview for 13+ entry done in yr 6 and can last for 2 hours. They do sit a short test which I believe varies from house to house and can be nonverbal/verbal/maths/comprehension. The house master is trying to decide not only is this boys right for the school academically but also right for his particular boarding house and the school as a whole. No exam is going to tell you that. What makes the process in my opinion so good is that he can use his gut feeling about a boy. I work in the public sector and people are judged in interviews not on their actual ability to do the job but on their ability to use the current jargon and more and more the wrong people are appointed who frequently sling in the towel after a few months. I would rather have the gut feeling interview any time.

I think you should leave the system well alone, op, if you only have your own gut feeling to go on. It is a complex area. Many people feel that selection by the state grammars would be fairer if they were allowed to take references into account -look at the threads on here about very bright kids having an inexplicably bad day and missing out on grammar place. A report from the school could help, not hinder.