how important is setting/streaming in secondary schools?

[koalalou]

I was once told that the only thing that really matters when choosing a secondary school is making sure that classes are set or streamed according to ability. I have just found out that our preferred school does not, except for Y9-Y12 maths. We are looking at schools in Australia (as we are moving back there later this year) so I have had to go by what we have been able to find out on the internet/reputation/where DD's friends are going.

The school has said:

the College?s approach to class groupings is steeped in an understanding of Social Justice and equality. In all cases (Mathematics being the exception in Years 9 to 12) students are placed in mixed ability groups for their day to day classes. Each group, particularly in the core subjects includes a core of high ability students. These are determined either by an entrance test for Year 7 or for Years 8 to 10, on the previous year's academic result. Teachers of these mixed ability classes differentiate the curriculum to suit the needs of the students in their class.

The school has a very good reputation - fairly good academically (not selective so not outstanding) and excellent pastoral care. DD is keen to go (as a couple of her good friends are probably going there) but I am not sure. We will get a chance to visit the school before we have to make a decision (she is currently Y5), but I am a bit concerned and am hoping that someone might be able to tell me that I am worrying about nothing and that it is fine for schools to take this approach.

Settng isn't crucial for all subjects if the teachers are really hot on mixed ability teaching and differentiation (if the teachers don't really believe in it then there can be big problems). Streaming is something I would avoid with a barge pole, as it doesn't mean putting them into groups based on ability in that subject alone, so can be difficult for example to know where to put someone who is good at Science but not so good at English (or even good at Science but not so good at Music). Streaming is also less flexible, and it is much harder to move someone up or down (as it affects more than one subject).

The only thing in that statement that would concern me is the bit about Social Justice, but that could be quite normal for Australia, different places have different jargon. It sounds a bit left wing to be stated like that in the UK.

I think much depends on the intake of the school. My DD is at a local comp and very happy there. She is fairly academic but not mega bright. She was def held back by no streaming in certain subjects until Yr 9. English in particular was very dumbed down and she is unlikely to attain the highest grade which is a shame as this was her best subject. Some of the kids in her class were only level 2 or 3 and clearly needed a lot of extra help - doubt they benefited from the experience either. Maths is usually always streamed in English schools and was accordingly less of a problem. They told me they would differentiate in English/humanities/languages but what really happened was that everything tended to go towards the middle so no pushing.

Sorry meant setting. Totally agree that streaming is not a good idea as children can differ massively between subjects.

Hi, thank you for your replies. I think when the school mention streaming they actually mean setting as it only applies to one subject - maths.

I am reasonably comfortable with the 'social justice' comment - it is a Catholic school with quite a good social ethos (we are not Catholics).

dd (In Yr8) goes to a school where the decision to 'set' or not seems to be taken individually by the subject HoDs. Some subjects - art, and PE for eg, she's quite happy that they aren't set. She likes the fact she has different friends in different subject lessons. She likes the fact they are set for English and Science. I know (it's a school with a language specialism) they set them early for languages, and have shot off like a bullet out of a gun with the pace they are working in the top set (I'm guessing they must be going at a more measured pace in other sets). She is SO frustrated that they do not set for maths, and I've been in communication with the HoD several times over it.
It's certainly not the only thing I'd decide on a school over, but I know you have to be a very skilled teacher to differentiate across the whole range of ability and difficulty, and where that's not happening, it's frustrating to say the least, so it's certainly something I would take into account.
That said, I know this things can change over a couple of years (having looked round schools for ds, then, later, for dd1)

My view is that mixed ability teaching is impossible. It is ok for setting work, as you can set different exercises, but for teaching, how can you talk to a whole class and also teach to different abilities?
Struggling children will still be lost and top children will be bored

Most subjects are taught at most schools in mixed ability classes after year 9 in England, because that is how most Options are taught, it is also how most subjects are taught at Primary. The key factors for it to work are class size and the teacher being trained and well able to use differentiation.
It is probably hardest in something like Maths or maybe Science, but I know of amazing truly mixed ability lessons eg. year 7 studying Beowulf. Or History lessons comparing sources, which sources depend on the ability levels. Group work is also great too, especially to get to understand the text or source material. I have worked with a form group and the person who got the material about refugees, and could express it clearly to the class was a troublesome student with SEN.
But Youngmother1 are you a teacher? Do you know what teaching is? Or do you think its some mystical process that involves someone telling you stuff that somehow you learn? Because good teaching isn't like that nowadays.

You are not comparing like with like in comparing British and Australian systems, so your question is not really answerable. I have Australian friends who have taught in that country, at a senior level, who are highly unimpressed with what passes for differentiation in some UK schools.

Differentiating work for classes is hard work but rewarding and successful if done well as you don't have the problem with labelling children by setting and having them live down to expectations if placed in lower sets. Current research shows that countries which set early and a lot have lower educational outcomes than those which set less and later.

If you think the school you are considering differentiates successfully, then it should be fine. It is often fine in the UK, but is practised inconsistently.

Streaming = BAD - leads to very few children reaching their full potential
Setting = VERY GOOD - and leads to better outcomes for teachers and pupils
as they can pitch the work to the kids en bloc rather than in dribs and drabs

Maths in particular - it is insane to teach it in mixed ability above year 3

Lisabetta "Totally agree that streaming is not a good idea as children can differ massively between subjects."

But even if you set (and don't stream) there will be a difference betweeen the top and the less able in the top/middle/bottom set, and in grammars (which accept on NVR or VR or maths) there will be people who are hopeless at language or music or whatever.

Another way of making the same point: if there is a 9 30-pupil form entry divided up into 9 streams, then the 30 in the top stream will be much close together in general ability (leaving aside the above point) than the top stream in a 3 form entry school. And exactly the same point can be made if you divide the 270 pupils into 9 "sets" for maths compared to dividing up 90 pupils into 3 sets.

There will always be "mixed ability" teaching - its just a question of how much you divide it all up.

Yes - it all needs good teaching.

at DCs school there are two bands each split into 5 level sets

and the sets are clustered so that arts is separate sets than sciences

Mummytime "Most subjects are taught at most schools in mixed ability classes after year 9 in England, because that is how most Options are taught, it is also how most subjects are taught at Primary."

This isn't my experience at all, and I know a lot of KS4 and above pupils at a lot of differernt schools. Take Science at ds's school. The top set(s?) do 3 Science in the same timetabled lessons as the next set(s?) do 2 Science, and then there are other pupils doing BTEC or some kind of combined Science. You couldn't do that without setting them.

OhDearConfused explains it well. Yes, all good teachers will need to differentitate, but it's pointless having 8 sets covering the whole range of ability, from potential PhD students to those with quite severe special needs, when you could group them into 'ranges' of ability, and actually teach all the pupils all lesson, rather than as happens to my dd wasting more than 50% of every single maths lesson while the teacher is going over basic stuff she mastered 4 years ago. Equally, I spent many years teaching children with SEN who would be completely lost in a maths lesson aimed at the "average" child, whatever that mey be. Taught, starting from the level they have 'grasped/ they can make progress.

Oh, and my experience at Primary is that children are commonly 'set' for maths and English too.

I wasn't talking about Science, Maths or English! I meant History, Geography, Textiles, Business Studies and so on, those option subjects have to be taught mixed ability (and I know some very mixed ability classes). Some teachers find teaching GCSE a shock after nice set up to then.

mummytime
technically they are mixed ability
but looking at the way the options are structured they are not
as the kids of different abilities pick up different timetable slots for different things
it will always depend on the school and how well they use the timetabling software
and whether the heads of department agree to sign off each pupils option choices

I'd want to ask some hard questions about which tier GCSEs they enter pupils in. For I do not see how you prepared adequately for two differing exams in one classroom.

Lack of setting at the secondary DS is catchmented for is one of the reasons we are starting to think of a move to private.

That isn't the way it works at any of the schools I know. I knew of one History class which had one boy with quite severe SEN needs and others from the G and T register. It worked fine, the teacher was very experienced and knew how to differentiate (he did have a TA which helped).

Some subjects only have one paper. On the other hand in my DS's Geography class they cover the higher level work (which includes differentiation), those just doing foundation often have problems with writing and putting things into words. The exams don't differ that much, the same syllabus just sometimes extra topics or depth needed for higher tier. I have seen pupils prepared for both tiers in one Science class, although in another school that class would have all been sitting the higher tier.

When I teach a mixed ability group, I do differentiate, if I didn't then half of my classes wouldn't learn anything. It is easier though to teach a setted class; it allows me to 'stretch' the brighter students far more and support the lower ability students with more time/resources.

In terms of option groups, at my school if there are enough for more than 1 class in a subject, then they are setted.

I have yet to experience or see an effective mixed ability class in secondary school. What tends to happen IME of MA classes is the teacher teachers to the middle level. The top kids finish off their work first because it too easy for them and are asked to help the bottom kids because they can't understand the work set, while the teacher concentrates on the middle lot. Setting and streaming were definitely one of my priorities when choosing a secondary school if a school said they had mixed ability classes beyond the first term of year 7 I crossed it off my list.

Thanks again for your replies. I agree that mixed ability classes are very hard to make work, which is why I was concerned.

However, I also agree with cheltenmum that school the I am looking at in Australia is probably not comparable to most schools in the UK in that this seems to be a key part of their set up and they probably would not have the reputation that they do have if it it did not work or if the teachers were not well trained and/or dedicated to that way of teaching.

Mummy I have never seen that in practise at secondary schools. If the bright finish they are given further questions or directed to the higher levels of a level ladder etc. The less able often get a more directed worksheet or similar.

mummytime Perhaps you are assuming that which you do is done by all teachers ? I can assure you it's not. I haven't got facts and figures for "the majority" of teachers, but I know the facts where it is affecting my dd's learning.

Nope cos I'm not a teacher, but I was training as one a couple of years ago, so have observed lessons by lots of teachers in 6 or more schools.