Is anyone else struggling with GCSE options regarding languages and 6th form entry/uni entry?

[Fimbo]

We thought we had worked out which options dd was going to take. But the 6th form she is keen to get into is insisting from 2014 that a language is a necessity at GCSE regardless of whether you carry on to do it A Level or not. Dh phoned them yesterday and they said that even if a pupil applied with 10 A*'s they wouldn't even be considered unless they had a language. The principal said that more and more universities will be pushing for languages at GCSE and A level.

I am so confused. It doesn't help either that dh and I are both Scottish and know that system better. If we send her to an independant 6th form then they don't have that criteria but then I wonder if she would be penalised when trying to getting into uni.

Arrghh it is so damn hard. We want her to do History, Geography & Spanish as her 3 option choices, she wants to do Art (which she probably her weakest subject), Geography & Spanish.

We have already had tears and tantrums, I also remember my dad stopping me from doing subjects I wanted to do so I do know how she is feeling and where she is coming from. We are just trying to see it from the long term point of view.

Show her this thread

So she wants to do Spanish and you want her to do Spanish, what's the problem?

I don't understand either? Yes she should do a language GCSE but she has a humanities subject in Geography so let her do Art. History is a great subject - my degree! BUt if you don't want to do it, it's a killer. Let her do Art. it's a good GCSE too and she may surprise you.

If there's even the faintest possibility of her wanting to go to university, then you'd be wise to push her to do a language GCSE - some courses and universities already require it, and others are likely to follow suit. I'm not sure how being used to the Scottish system makes any difference - if she was up here she'd be equally strongly pushed to do a Standard Grade language for the same reason.

Ah sorry. I missed a bit she was going to do Art, History and Geography and miss out the language entirely it's only upon enquiring with 6th form colleges that we have found out the language is a must. So now the choice is either Art, Geography & Spanish her choice or History, Geography & Spanish our choice.

Sorry AMumInScotland I am just used to the Scottish system which i am more clued up on.

A language is obviously a good idea but I'm very surprised it should be seen as compulsory. Anyway, she's going to take Spanish so that's good. I think you should let her choose Art. She's Taking a humanity and a language, so the English baccalaureate is covered. My DDs both took/are taking Art. It's the subject with the most homework - by a mile. Dies she know that?

Does - obviously!

OK. Well it is a rather extreme stance for the sixth form to take compared to the rest of the country, but on the other hand I do agree that children that are able to do languages should take them - nationally we have a shockingly low facility for foreign languages and it is something we should be concerned about and try and reverse, so I do think Spanish is a good thing for your dd even if she 's not all that keen. As far as history vs art goes for the remaining choice if she might want to study either art or history at A level or degree level then she needs to choose appropriately now. If she might want to do architecture then art would be preferred and there may be a preference for history for law or similar although I don't think she'd be ruling this out by not doing it (she could take another analytical subject like English literature instead at A level for example). Otherwise it really is a preference thing. Do make sure she's aware of the workload of the art, sadly some children choose it and it puts them off art for life but others enjoy it and it is a lovely skill to have and a nice contrasting subject.

I think most schools are 'advising' a language at GCSE because of future EBacc stats! Dd3's school now wants a letter from parents if you choose not to do a language. At options evening this week they said that Universities are wanting a language at GCSE.

You say that you want her to do 2 humanities and a language. Given that students only really get 2 'pure' choices at GCSE now that a language and humanity are virtually compulsory, I would let her do what she wants. What's her 4th choice, or does the school have other compulsory subjects they want them to take?

Remember that the Ebacc is not a qualification. It's something Michael Gove has cobbled up in between thinking the Queen should have a new yacht and letting religious extremists start their own schools. You need to check directly with the university you are interested in. This is from Oxford's website.

"Reports in the media or speculation that Oxford has indicated a preference or requirements for candidates to have the English Baccalaureate are not accurate.

Oxford will keep the development of the English Baccalaureate under review, assessing to see if it is a helpful predictor for success at Oxford, but will not, under any circumstances, require it of students who have chosen their GCSE mix before Oxford indicates any compulsory use in the admissions process."

It will be a very good idea to make Spanish one that she has to take - but I'd then let her make her own choices beyond that. DS's school was very clear that it was most important that they make the choice, and that they are not pushed into anything by parents or the school.

coconutty extraordinarily, the OP's dd's preferred sixth form has made a foreign language GCSE a requirement of entry, this is nothing to do with what universities may or may not want.

OP, is it a state sixth form? I'm guessing if it is that it is very oversubscribed and probably a grammar? Cynically, it seems this is probably a rouse on their part to raise the entry standards rather than for any other reason.

Why aren't they taking a language Coconutty? What's wrong with language GCSEs that kids are so reluctant to take them?

It's probably worth pointing out to her that, at GCSE, art is about 80%-90% whilst most people think it is just 60%. This is because the 'exam project' (which is 40% of the GCSE) is also 75% coursework. That's a lot of lesson time.
As an art teacher I would say only do art if your DD really enjoys it. Being good at it now isn't necessarily a consideration needed; many students mature a lot in the subject between year 9 and 10, get more creative ideas and improve a lot.

That should say 80-90% coursework.

My daughter made a last minute change to her GCSE options and took Art instead of Spanish. Mistake. It was a huge amount of work, she lost interest quite rapidly, she didn't in any case have the level of ability required to do well and she ended up with a C (and lucky to get that). She had been doing Spanish for two years when she chose her options and I think would have been in with a good chance of a B at GCSE had she stuck with it - outside chance of an A. I can't understand looking back why no one at the school pointed this out - naively we thought if the school made no comment to us about her choosing Art instead of Spanish it must mean they thought she would do equally well at either. Oh well, you live and learn.

It was just that my 3 have had positive experiences of language GCSEs and I don't really recognise the dread that so many DCs seem to have of them. Also its easier to get high grades with less work than a subject like Art as LondonMother has pointed out.

I suppose I'm looking at the bigger picture rather than whether its "boring". DD1 has french GCSE and A level and is currently taking part in a language pairing scheme with a native french speaker at university. She's studying abroad at the moment and she says she feels frustrated that she can only speak english whereas so many of her fellow international students speak several languages. DD2 took two languages and got A*s for both of them which was helpful when applying for a competitive course at university and DS is currently doing french GCSE and will probably take A level as well as it fits in well with his other A level choices. He's doing an additional extension project and already has several ideas of what he'll be choosing to research for his A level oral exam.

I agree with horses for courses but if an able student is finding spanish hard and boring then either they aren't trying very hard or it isn't being very well taught.

It is a state sixth form not grammar. The school she is currently at does not have a 6th form attached to it which makes the 6th form she wants to go to heavily oversubscribed (it's in the next village up from us). Dh phoned and spoke to the assistant principal on Friday, he said that even someone who tried to get in with say 8/9 A*'s would not even be considered unless one of them was in a language. He reiterated that more and more Universities are looking for a language as a condition of entry.

We'll after long discussions and the promise that she could attend a photography workshop at the local zoo no less, she has decided herself that she would prefer to do History, Geography & Spanish with the fall back being Art as the school cannot guarantee the first choices.

I am so grateful for all your words of wisdom.

Thank you.

It is a very bad idea for parents to try to influence GCSE options unless the child wants to do something really really bonkers. let her make her own decisions.

'trying to influence' has a whole range of meaning though. Obviously trying to impose your will over the child's is bad, but to engage in reasoned debate with a child to ensure they know the implications of their choices and what is actually involved in them is a good thing in my opinion as long as the final choice is theirs - but then there's the grey area in the middle where the reasoned debate is erring overly towards steering a child's choices rather than giving them the facts and letting them choose and also the facts can be presented in an overly biased way, even unwittingly. It's a parenting minefield really.