GCSE options nightmare for my 13 year old - advice very welcome

[HoneyKate]

I would be so grateful for any help in this area. My daughter is in year 9 and her current Key Stage 3 grades are mainly in the 5's (mix of a,b and c). What Level GCSE would you expect her to study? The school (recently converted to Academy status) is insisting she study all subjects at Level 1 and they will only let her do 5 GCSEs and Btech Science, meaning that she won't be able to achieve higher than a Grade D at GCSE. This is despite her predicted levels (for end of year 9) being 6's in most subjects (bar maths and science where they are 5a). She is so distressed (as am I and her father)that they won't let her even try for a C grade in anything. Everything she wants to do in further education relies on her getting minimum Grade C and B's. Her teachers have told her how well she is doing and even her maths teacher told us 2 weeks ago at the parents evening that she could achieve a Grade C if she worked hard. She is in the second from top English class but second from bottom in Maths. She is a good student, never absent and never disruptive. She has never been in any trouble or even had a detention. I don't understand why they won't give her the chance to try for Grade C's. I am guessing this stems back to her CAT scores at primary which were quite low even though her SATS were mostly in the 6's. She would have been in band 2 were it not for the CATS which reduced her to a band 4 and in fact the dep head at the time told me he was initially thinking of putting her in band 5, the bottom band. She has since gone up to band 2 in English. Are there any teachers out there with any advice? My past experience in trying to reason with the school over various issues has rarely met with an success although I do intend to go into the school next week with all guns blazing. We only found this out at the end of school last Friday so have to stew on it all week. My poor daughter is distraught at the thought of never being allowed to try for a Grade C.

Have you got a local 6th form college? they are often more flexible and might offer some good advice

Update - the school has tried to fob us off with a phone call. They seemed very reluctant to offer a meeting but eventually said that one of the secretaries will phone us back with an appointment. ("Why do you need a meeting? It's all very straightforward"). We spoke to one dep. head who told us that the higher level GCSEs are A-D and the foundation level are C-G. Then her French teacher phoned to say, and I quote (I can't quite believe this) "the higher level is A-C and would be far too difficult for her so I recommend foundation level. She will never achieve higher than a C". And this is before the GCSE course has even started. So guess which subject now won't be one of her options? It seems clear from this that the teaching will be different in higher/foundation so once a student is on a foundation course they wouldn't be able to transfer to higher as they won't have been taught at that "level". They are taught at level C-G so they can only ever achieve C-G. So now we continue to be confused as to exactly which grades the higher level and foundation level include, or perhaps they differ from subject to subject? What is clear, though, is that the school is not making any allowance for the possibility of her being a late developer or coming on in leaps and bounds in Key Stage 4 which I know sometimes happens. Can a teacher really tell, before a student even embarks on a GCSE course, that they will never achieve higher than a C?

Just to add, the French teacher said she had a poor start to the year (when she was assessed as KS3 Level 5a) but had progressed a lot in the last few months. But clearly she thinks that she has no chance of progressing any further!

If your daughter is the kind who will get a C at core science GCSE, but will struggle with additional science, then Btech may well be a better option for her. She might not be able to do A'levels in the separate sciences, but she could do either a higher level Btech or a'level applied science both of which may well be suitable for someone wanting to go into nature conservation. Universities do accept them as well (just not Oxbridge).
I would suggest you look around for post 16 education, maybe an FE college would offer a wider range of courses. My local one offers ones in land based studies, and they also have close links to future employers.

Oh dear!

My daughter was level 5 in French in year 9. She has had to work very very hard and is now C/D borderline. So, to some extent, the teacher is probably right. Certainly, I can understand her allocation to foundation set. BUT, what a way to say it! French comes from four discipline angles - writing reading listening and speaking. It may be she will be better in some than others. If she is, there is the facility to allow that one discipline to be assessed at higher grades/entered for higher paper. While the teacher is likely to be right she really should not have worded it that way - it just kills all aspirations dead! Also, say French was a necessity for her career (maybe she aspires to work in Paris) then you might choose to get her a tutor.....so, again, she may do better than current progress suggests.

No wonder our hard working borderliners find keeping their aspirations up difficult!

The following is a long thread now but you might find it interesting as I started it when my daughter was in year 9, much like you have. She is year 11 now.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/844915-National-Curriculum-Levels-and-how-they-predict-GCSE-grades

Hi Kez100, yes I have read your thread several times and it was very useful in helping me suss out what the predicted GCSE grades were for my daughter currently in the KS3 5's. Well done to your daughter for getting her Grade C maths, what a fantastic achievement and how proud of her you must be. I am hoping my daughter's school will be flexible and allow her to study some subjects at foundation and some at higher, in effect, "crossing" the two options booklets. I want to find a happy balance between not putting too much pressure on her but at the same time encouraging her to reach her potential and not limiting her to Grade C's if there are areas where she may do better. Everyone on this thread has been so helpful in explaining the different levels which I was so confused about before. If only the school had explained them in the options booklets! My daughter has been tearful this week and for the first time didn't want to go to school today which is upsetting for all of us.

sorry to be blunt, but sometimes the reality of the situation hurts

the teaching staff have years and years of experience as to the likely hood of a student achieving the higher grades and therefore placing your dd in the correct set for her ability - it is not about not wanting her to achieve higher than a C, but it is very, very doubtful she will.

If there are enough classes to warrant it, the majority of schools teach in sets as the work for A/A* is far different from that needed to achieve a C. It also allows for the lower sets to focus more on the basics without having to 'rush' through to allow the higher achieving students to complete the learning they need.

I would be surprised if they do not allow some flexibility at some point if your dd is working at a higher level, as the school gains more 'points' if students achieve higher than they should.

I think you need to be careful that you don't give her the message that Cs aren't good enough. For a student on a 5c at the end of Year 9, a C grade represents an awful lot of hard work and progress. At the beginning of the thread you were saying you wanted heer to be able to try for Cs, now you seem to be saying she must be allowed to try for Bs and As.

Having said that, this kind of 'banding' (which I've never heard of before) seems very unfair - many students have strengths in certain subjects and should be allowed to access higher grades for those. But I guess it's an exam factory Academy, so they can do what they like. If it is any consolation, they treat the staff the same way, too.

My DCs school is a new academy.
They do not do banding, they do setting.
Banding is the sign (IMHO) of a lazy head of curriculum who is not willing to go that extra mile to get the best out of all students.

DD is filling out her form tonight having finally tossed a coin on which language to drop. They have both been compulsory up to now, but there is only one slot left in her options. Its a bummer.

Our school is an Academy too and our options are available for all. Obviously, some do foundation papers but, to be honest, that's more in the core as a lot of the option GCSEs are A* to U for all.

Another academy here, also with sets and not banding. So being less able at Maths wouldn't affect your English set.

HoneyKate - I hope you get it sorted for your daughter.

There is no such thig as a level 1 GCSE

I teach in a FE college, and I think you have already been given some good advice. To add a couple of thoughts...

Don't get too worked up about it, as it is not the end of the world. As others have pointed out, whilst some subjects have tiered papers not all do, and so in those subjects (History, Religious Studies etc) it is perfectly possible for your daughter to still come out with an A* at the end of it. Only some subjects have tiers. It might be worthwhile asking the school which ones have tiers.

Also, when I interview students (and I speak to hundreds each year), they often talk about moving tiers. Often this is downwards (I hear it most on maths - that students have been moved down to foundation tier to ensure they get their grade C in maths), but occasionally I interview someone who has done well and been moved up a tier. This can't be done too late, as there will be gaps in their knowledge, but it is definitely worth asking the school whether it is possible to move up a tier if your DD proves herself when on the GCSE course.

Finally, whilst not ideal, it is increasingly common at our college to see students resitting their GCSEs in the first year and then moving on to A levels the following year. This is often students who get grade Ds the first time round. We only used to have a few of these students, but every year it is more and more. As you say, some students are just late developers and need that extra time to mature before getting their GCSEs. It doesn't mean failure. I have seen one student do this and go on to get Bs in their AS levels. It doesn't always mean the end of the road.

In your situation, I would want to have a meeting with the school, as whilst most schools do act in the best interests of the student, my years in teaching have shown me that the pressure of getting the golden 'A-C' grades does mean that some teachers act politically rather than what is actually in the best interests of the child. I have seen examples where students have been encouraged to sit foundation papers (to ensure the golden C grade is achieved) rather than trying for a B grade on the higher paper and risking not making the mark... Sometimes it is the best thing for the child, sometimes not.

Also, I note that your child is going to do a BTEC in science... If you're looking at going on to college, I would just check how many points BTECS are awarded. Not all colleges accept them / count them for as many as the schools claim that they are worth. For example, I know of one school where they tell the students that one particular BTEC is equivalent to 4 GCSEs, but the college the students subsequently go on to (not my college btw), only accept it as one. It is worth checking!

And good luck .

I will speak to the 6th form college to double check their stance on Btecs. Their website seems to indicate they only take GCSE's insofar as it doesn't mention Btecs or say anything about "GCSEs or equivalent". Balia - no I have never been under any illusion that she is an A grade student. I think I mentioned B grades in an earlier post purely because some of her "predicted" grades - i.e. the grades her teachers predicted she could reach by the end of Year 9, indicated that she might be able to achieve B grades. I would be over the moon if she manages to achieve 5 or 6 grade Cs - I know it will mean a tremendous amount of hard work from her to achieve this. I would like to find out from her teachers whether they think it is possible she could aim for a B in drama and possibly English where she is in band 2. There are plenty of A levels she could study at the local 6th form college where C grades would be sufficient but where the odd B grade here and there is "preferred". Her last report was Autumn 2011 and she had a few 5a's at that point. It is possible she might have gone up a sub-level since that time in one or two subjects to 6c and we still have a few months of Year 9 to go. We are trying to find that out at the moment and waiting for the school to give us an appointment so that we can discuss the best path for our DD at a face to face meeting rather than over the phone. The last thing I want is for her to be stressed out with a ton of work at a level she cannot handle but, equally, I feel the school is wrong to say she must study everything at Foundation level rather than being flexible and recognising her strengths in some subjects as well as her weaknesses in others. It seems from comments here that history and drama exams only have one level and she is currently deciding between geography, music and media studies as her third option instead of French. A lot of the questions I had at the beginning of half term have been answered now thanks to this thread and lots of internet searching so I have a much clearer picture now in readiness for speaking to the school.

Can you enter her as a private GCSE candidate for every subject she wants to sit? Then it's up to her what she gets.

The school may even allow her to sit them there, you never know, if that avoids affecting their official results.

It's not as easy as that!

To start with, foundation and higher paper are on the same day at the same time - so you can only enter one.

Where there are controlled assessments you'd have to do them at a proper centre. And that means a lot of the prep too in most cases, and

If a student is level 5 at KS3 then they will need a lot of work to get to Grade C+ Just entering and turning up won;t buy a grade - a lot of tutoring or work is going to have to happen somewhere...when? The student should be working hard on her actual curriculum subjects.

Update following our school meeting last week with the Assistant Head. Frustratingly, the school is STILL relying on the CAT scores from when DD was 10. As far as the school is concerned, these indicate - according to "CAT statistics" that my DD is unlikely ever to achieve good GCSE grades. My heart sunk when the AD brought this up. I was told the school knows of only 3 children who have performed "outside the box" as far as low CAT scores are concerned. I explained about the Level 6 SATS my daughter had at the same age and the AH said it was very unusual to have so much disparity between CATs and SATs at that age but it is not judged significant enough to make any difference to their views on the significance of CATs. I tried to explain that her English and drama teachers were both predicting B grades and how did this equate to their view on her CATs but the AD fudged around the question and didn't really give us an answer. Having said that, they have agreed that DD can study double English (Eng. Lang and Eng. Lit). Science is still at Btec level unless my daughter makes what they deem significant progress between now and end of year 9. The AH was very dismissive when we said our DD hopes to study A levels and she made some comment about her not being Oxbridge material. As if I had ever thought or intimated that! I left the meeting feeling very deflated but at least we achieved something with English, and science is now in DD's hands and of course we will support her with home study/revision. Currently she is set to study 6 GCSEs (2 x English, maths, 3 option subjects) and Btec science. Oh and half a GCSE in RE although I fail to see any advantage of having half a GCSE. So now we will focus our efforts on supporting and encouraging her to achieve the best grades she can.

Few things.

RE - The Government require schools to do an hour of RE a week. So, children have to do it. However, an hour a week isn't enough to cover a full GCSE so most schools do a half. They appreciate it is relatively useless but it means children get a chance at 'something' for the hour a week the Government require.

I'm sorry the AD was so statistically blinkered. Especially if it was only one low score compared to other data (errrr...if he does love his stats, whatever happened to ignoring 'outliers'?)

It seems English is sorted and, presumably, she'll do foundation Maths? If she is, what level is she now? If level 5, if I were you, find out the syllabus she'll be following, buy an appropriate text book, and start to do some basic work with her at home as extra. Stick with it - an hour at least twice a week. Maybe three times. Don't get to the situation we were in having to do masses in summer of year 10 to 11.

Science - again, what level is she at? My daughter was 5a and has worked her socks off and is getting C/D in Core and D in Additional with masses of work It is hard for non-scientists.

A levels. Don't knock her aspirations but do bear in mind all the courses available at 6th formand college and let her play to her strengths when you get to choosing in year 11. They will be much more apparant when she is in year 11.

What a ridiculous statement about Oxbridge.

Oh, and keep supporting her self-esteem and positiveness! As my daughter has printed on her bedroom wall "Success is the best form of revenge

Thanks Kez. Yes Maths is at Foundation level. She is currently at 5(c). We are already working through KS3 work books at home (the kind from WHSmith) and DD's teacher has given us details of the text book she uses so we can get hold of that. Helpfully he has listed the areas of maths where she needs particular catch-up and we are focusing on these. Science, 5(b) in her last exam although teacher assessed her as a 4(c) so a lot of disparity there. He said he had (his words) "no idea" how she got such a good exam mark. She needs to reach 6(c) by end of year 9 to be eligible to study science GCSE. There are some really interesting sounding A levels offered locally that may well be within her reach if she works hard, so DD knows she has a goal to aim for, something to spur her on. Kez - I agree with your DD's mantra!

I don't know whether examining bodies will allow entries from private candidates of schoolage .they certainly didn't use to.
I think you are very right to be concerned.Aplogies to anyone whose kids have done Btecs but they are not worth the paper they are written on.Stick to GCSEs, even lower tier ones are preferable.They are acting in the interests of their statistics not your DD
this is an old foundation level gcse science paper (it's one that's been discontinued but it gives you an idea of the level0 a.Do you really think that by the end of Y11 ie in nearly 2.5 years, she will not be able to ace this paper!

dandelionss - yes I'm sure examining bodies WILL let private candidates enter for exams - this is the way that children who are home-educated enter for their GCSEs. However, I am not sure about "double entry" - certainly if she does Btec science at school, she cannot also enter for GCSE (two completely different curriculums for a start). We were told that Btec science is practical and GCSE science is academic. But could she study privately, eg by correspondence course at a later date for GCSE science and enter an exam - for example with another examination board? I imagine she could because I don't see how they would be able to prevent it. But it would certainly be too much pressure and much too confusing for her to study Btec at school and GCSE in home time both at the same time. Thank you for adding that old GCSE science paper, I'll print it off for DD, but whether I think she could pass that paper is irrelevant, it's what the school will allow her to do that overrides my wishes or those of DD. It's exactly your argument above that I have been having with the school because Btecs are not counted as GCSE equivalents in order to study A levels. Btecs are aimed at students wanting to head for vocational courses. If my DD was allowed to study GCSE science then she could have as much as 3 years to study it in if necessary. 2 years to do the course (one science in year 10, additional science in year 11) plus the "extra" compulsory year they have to complete after GCSEs but before A levels (introduced this year for all students currently in year 9 and below) when she would have the chance to re-take if she didn't get a C grade.

What is this extra year? I don't think there is an extra year - it's just no one can leave until they are at end of year 12 - they must do something - go into a 6th form, college, or work placement until they are 17.

Certainly though, if someone wants to do level 2 qualifications in year 12 to then move onto level 3 one year later, that seems a sensible option. Why not? So long as a good range of GCSEs are still available from your school or college.

My daughter left year 8 with a 5b in science she entered year 9 in 3rd set science which she cried her eyes out about.Then they gave the students physics chemistry and biology tests and they moved her to 2nd set. She is predicted a A or A star despite a level 5b in year 8. I don't think that if you got a 5b in ks3 you should aim for a C- my daughter was example of that.

This is a three year old thread allows