St Paul's (boys) Common Entrance

[interest]

Our son has a conditional place at St Paul's (2012). We've been obliged to turn down an offer from another school, but what if he fails to meet St Paul's strict criteria on the day despite very positive reports from his current headmaster? Has anyone heard of this happening?

Famously St Pauls got their numbers wrong about 6 or 7 years ago and had to let down a significant number post common entrance in June when they were due to start in September. This included a couple of boys at Colet. There was a lot of frantic phoning around and other schools did their best to find a few extra places each. It worked out fine for the boy we knew who was involved.

As a result I think St Pauls will be very careful about over offering.

Otherwise there should not be a problem if your DS is at a regular feeder school. They will know the standard required and let you know if your son is off-track. Very very few fail the CE once achieving a conditional offer. The only boy we know who did was not at a prep and failed to understand the level required. If there may be a problem which cant be solved by your son putting in extra effort, feeder schools will advise that you drop ambitions for St Pauls and try 13+ elsewhere, eg Dulwich, City, Whitgift, Latymer Upper etc where entry is not through conditional offers and CE but by 13+ exams.

My DS was offered a conditional place (2011) and I thought they offered out significantly more places than they had available and took the top 75 from CE results the other 75 having gone to Colets. I thought they said about 100 sit CE (excluding Colets) so 25 will be disappointed. I might of got all this wrong but I think at the time I questioned them quite carefully about it. In the end we turned down the place for a variety of reasons but we were really looking for full boarding and I suppose ultimately only applied because it was my DH's school.

Is that really true? That would leave 25 pupils with nowhere to go - given that the school asks you to turn down other offers and commit to them. In any case, common entrance papers can be sent only to one school.

I asked them very carefully how many sat it and that is what I recall them saying if you don't get you first choice your papers are passed onto another school. Frankly St Paul's only wants those 75 (I've taken Colet Court out of the equation) who get the hugest marks.

Westminster also over-offered a few years ago. Or rather, made the number of offers it expected would be OK then found that the expected dropping off from the list (after successful pre-test) did not happen.

No school wants to be in that situation. It puts parents off (the stress of pre-testing is bad enough, the thought that CE could cease to be a qualifying exam and become constitute would just be the last straw) and they would turn to schools which do not seem to get themselves in such a mess (I don't think it's ever happened at eg KCS Wimbledon).

If the school becomes aware it has over-offered, it will let prep Head's know how many they think they will need to fail (sometime in the January term) and suggest that the Head (ideally tactfully) warns the weaker candidates. This then gives a little while to scramble round for a fall back plan. But a very stressful time for everyone.

January is too late to enter many London (non CE) 13+ exams, so it is something to think about even before the times the warnings usually appear. CLB now pre-tests at 11. It may well be better to divert to another CE school, but one which does not pre-test and generally has a lower qualifying mark (Harrodian?)

St Pauls doesn't pre test just interviews and takes up references. At least it didn't a few years ago and I think this is one of the reasons it over offers places because it is unable to work out who are the top 75 pupils. We were told it just takes those with the top 75 CE marks.

That's interesting - it means St Paul's is saying different things to different people.

The Head's report, which is gateway to interview, is the key part of the selection process (rather than exam, as for Westminster and KCS who I referred to above). It also manages its list by having a much earlier registration cut off than others (possibly to favour well organised families with an early preference for them). But it's still a main offers and reserve list offers system at the end of the day, and the numbers on the list are normally in line with available places by the time first choices have to be confirmed.

And it cannot be running a competitive CE as it is not failing boys annually.

Agree with Carltonscoop that St Paul's is not failing boys annually. They place huge emphasis on the Head's report.... If the Head says the child will achieve 75 then they believe them rather than pre test 2 years before the exam. I think a lot of schools have over offered in the past ( Radley did it last year and had to raise it's pass mark and turn away c20 boys, including those who had been on the list for years).

As I've already said I might have misunderstood the situation. My DS was at a boarding prep which doesn't feed into St Pauls so our head knew nothing about the day to day nuts and bolts of selection. His general view was that it was a pushy hot house and obviously only has a handful of boarders. I liked/like it although have no regrets about not taking up the place.

I do think you may be confused happygardening. For a start, around 170-180 boys enter SPS at 13. Also, the way CE works is that as you can only sit CE for one school - you have to pay a hefty deposit a year before the CE exams to SPS. There is no way they offer 100 places yet only take the top 75. It is correct that they operate a reserve list and also advise Prep schools to only submit the best candidates and the ones that will achieve the required marks at CE.

Congratulations to the OP - it's a great school, not a pushy hothouse but a school full of intelligent, curious boys who know how to have fun. Phone the school if confused.

As my DH was there we were very familiar with it and he was very happy there he never felt it was particularly pushy although I suspect it's changed a bit over the last thirty years. The biggest change of course being the reduction in boarders. It has a fantastic 21 st century ethos.

thanks for your reassurance needmoresleep and carltonscoop etc. that St Paul's doesn't overbook these days. By the way, are many boys tutored for CE into SP and Westminster. Our son isn't...

It depends.

A child at a good prep school should not need tutoring, and frankly they will have enough on. However children who are not at regular feeder schools might need extra support in some subjects. I assume this is a negotiation between school and parent, eg I know one family who have to use a tutor for Greek and Latin because the prep did not cover the work needed.

Because CE covers so many subjects it is probably wise to keep an eye across the board. I know someone who got a tutor in when they were underwhelmed with the new maths teacher at the prep. Their child got CE, another one who was not tutored missed, the teacher left.

I remember also being told that the offer letters can vary in their enthusiasm so that Prep Heads can work out who is absolutely in barring a catastrophe and who will need to make the grade. But honestly unless the prep is saying otherwise things should be fine. I found it a much nicer process than the agonies of 11+ .

Needsmoresleep's and Carltonsrcoop's recollections match ours. St. Paul's over offered at the interview stage. Sent letters that they were raising the CE bar for passing and suggesting weaker candidates look elsewhere. We got a call asking if we were still interested in St. Paul's...after they had cashed a hefty deposit cheque...CE became the competitive exam that Happygardening describes where the best scores got a place the low scores didn't. Fairly outrageous because it compromised a number of bright applicants and caused unecessary anxiety. New Head may mean the system is better but they do get it wrong. Concur with Carlton - KCS never seems to have that problem.

Quick addendum: "St. Paul's over offered at the interview stage 5-6 years ago.

Still a bit confused, Theretis. Do you believe SP always/frequently over offers or they got their numbers wrong just on this one occasion 5 -6 years ago? SP said they don't do this, but I have been hearing contradictory stories.
We paid the deposit and were asked by prep school head to turn down other offer to give waiting list boys a chance. At this stage in the process it's simply too late to look elsewhere...

Sorry interest for the confusion. It happened to us in 2007. I was told it also happened in 2006 but that is recieved wisdom. My DS was an external candidate, e.g. not from Colet Court. I completely understand your concern. I hope someone who has been through the process since the new head arrived with offer their experience. The explanation of what happens when they were oversubscribed matches ours -