Difference between KS2 level 6 and KS3 level 6

[Idratherbemuckingout]

Hi, I saw on another post that if your child has got a level 6 in the KS2 age group, he may well not get a level 6 when he goes up to secondary.

I wasn't aware there was a huge difference and had assumed that level 6 meant level 6 all across the board. So, if my son, who is HE, is a very good level 6 at KS 3 level, that would mean he is PROPER level 6? He is Year 6 by the way.
I ask this, because for his entrance exams the maths teacher (on open day) said they expected Level 6 from the children for the entrance exam.
But this must mean KS2 level 6, mustn't it? I think.
So if your child is level 6 KS3, he must be higher than level 6 KS2?
Am I right?
To be honest, he's level 7 really, but I only need him to be level 6.

Y6 teachers teach solving equations?

Routinely at level 5, ime.

Absolutely. I would like to know how English can't be my 'own subject', for a start.

Oh god really Feenie? I find that so utterly, utterly depressing.

without wanting to start an argument "use a number of structured systems to assess in Literacy, Science and Maths." does not include my subject which does get very high KS2 levels coming through when the primaries that feed to us don't cover the curriculum to allow these high levels in secondary

Why, noblegiraffe?

What IS your subject then, cricketballs?

ICT; the difference between KS2 L4/5 against KS3 4/5 is huge! There is no way that primary can cover what needs to be to be done to gain a secure level 5 but time and time again we are told students x, y, z have level 5. When it comes down to it, yes they are bright kids and can create a presentation do basic formula in a spreadsheet but doing the more complex things to secure level 4/5 and they are not able to.

Ahh, I see. We aren't allowed to teacher assess at level 5 in ICT in our LEA.

Because, Feenie, and you've triggered a rant that is in no way aimed at you personally, I would far rather that primary school teachers concentrated on the basic numeracy that I would like them to be utterly solid in by the time they reach secondary school than cursory teaching of a more advanced topic that they will be taught again in secondary school by teachers who are trained in maths and know how algebra progresses up to GCSE (and beyond).

The current primary curriculum where apparently kids do a topic for a couple of weeks and then moved on, having been assessed as mastering it and working at a high level has left kids coming to secondary school able to do a lot of topics badly. 'Oh yes, we've done algebra at primary' they cry, but still need teaching from scratch because they can't remember any of it.

I've just had a week with top set Y8 (should be level 7 by end of the year) tearing my hair out because some of them still can't reliably do long multiplication. One had never seen the bus stop method for division and some that had couldn't remember how to do it. I had to correct the misconception that multiplying numbers makes things bigger and some had to be reminded that multiplying anything by 0 gives 0. This rather hindered my lesson on multiplying and dividing decimals. Their numeracy also let them down when we dealt with fractions before Christmas. And a few commented on how they'd forgotten how to 'borrow' when doing decimal subtraction. Most of them are stumped when it is suggested that they should be able to do 54 x 6 in their heads.

So I would consider teaching solving equations in primary school to be an utter waste of time given that they will do it again in secondary school, and thoroughly. And they'll have forgotten it by the time they re-encounter it anyway. The maths curriculum in primary is overstuffed and needs slimming down so that there is more focus on the basics. Practise until it's second nature and they'll never forget it.

If you want to stretch the top end, give them decimals, negatives, bigger numbers. Mental maths practice. Just please leave the algebra alone.

Sorry, but you've hit a nerve :)

So I see!

All of my Y5 level 5 children can do all of the things your Y8 top set struggled with standing on their heads. They would laugh the suggestion that they couldn't, and I haven't a single child in my class that could not do 54 x 6 in their heads.

So what happens between Y6 and Y8?

How many Maths lessons do they have a week at secondary school?

A level 6, for example, is supposed to be the same animal wherever it is encountered.

I know that in maths in particular the government has been advised by subject experts for years that this is unrealistic for reasons mentioned upthread: different curricula, different levels of maturation etc.

They got into a sticky spot re comparison between KS2 and KS3 results and how close in difficulty the levels were between the two. Getting rid of end of KS3 tests got them out of that little hole

I agree with noblegiraffe re algebra, or rather formal algebraic techniques taught at primary level. However I think all the alternative forms of calculation done at primary level are good. I would be fairly happy if nobody knew how to use the 'bus stop' division algorithm (I've never heard it called that - good name, I knew what it meant though). Traditional written algorithms for arithmetic do nothing to help children's true understanding of number (eg stuff already mentioned like knowing the effects of multiplying or dividing by 0, 1 or numbers between 0 and 1).

sorry belgium bun, don't mean to offend anyone. I always expected a certain level of knowledge from primary school teachers, but have been deeply shocked at some ofthe teaching I have encountered, ( as a primary governor)where the primary teacher was just plain wrong. I have come to realise that some expectations are a bit unrealistic. A teacher cannot assess to level 5 in a subject if she is only level 4 herself! I'm not blaming teachers, but I do feel they may sometimes be thrown in at the deep end in certain subjects, without enough warning, support, or time to learn it themselves.

Level 4 at what? It's not much, I know, but a teacher needs GCSEs at least in English and Maths. I think you are over-generalising from just one or two experiences.

Now I am cross, actually - what subjects are you convinced that primary school teachers stopped progressing in around the age of 11?

You are talking rubbish asiatic. Nobody at L4 in anything could get close to qualifying to be a teacher. The vast majority of primary school teachers are extremely capable across the board of subjects alongside being, by necessity, extraordinarily hardworking.

Papers like the Daily Mail as well as other people, including some secondary teachers, like to peddle this crap about primary school teachers being incompetent. It's neither helpful nor true.

I have no axe to grind, I've never taught at primary level. I don't think I'm up to it tbh.

I would like to do some APP moderation with feeder primaries in my subject (science), but they are very anti. Any of the primary teachers on here do any cross moderation with secondaries?

Yes, we do some with two local secondaries. We have observed teaching there and at our school and moderated work - I have already posted about it on this thread.

Sorry! Any idea why our feeders are so reluctant? I think some of them are a bit defensive about the amount of science they do in year 6, but it's a shame...

No idea at all. Surely it can only be a Good Thing to moderate across schools - and our children have also benefitted from visiting. They did some experiments there with some Y9s - but really they were excited enough just sitting in a proper lab with bunsen burners

I'm a KS3 co-ordinator who has been involed with moderation alongside KS2 colleagues.

We have a greatly varying experience of science APP and the primaries in our area seemed to have focussed on English and maths. We all (me inlcuded) seem to have varying levels of insecurity abotu what we are doing with science assessment.

Maybe the reluctance stems from this? It would be a shame if it does, as I for one have learned a great deal from those KS2 counter parts who have already embraced APP.

Many KS2 science teachers had admitted that science had taken more of a back seat in their curriculum since the SATS went. Thats a huge shame and I applaud primaries that have not allowed that to happen.

The primary students and teachers come to us, and we go in to the primaries to do things, but have not been allowed to observe one of their science lessons, and certainly nowhere near their assessments. I shall continue on my charm offensive!

Maybe if you bill it as wanting to learn from them? That's how it was sold to us originally, but it's definitely a two way street.

Feenie, 7 lessons a fortnight.

I don't know what happens between Y6 and Y8 to make so many of them unable to remember basic written methods. How often are they expected to perform long multiplication or bus stop division in primary? If you gave your level 5 kids an impromptu sheet of arithmetic as a test, how many would get 100%?

I don't know what happens between Y6 and Y7 either though, to be fair. We do our own baseline assessment on them when they arrive and it often turns out lower results than the KS2 SATs (which in turn often are lower than teacher assessed levels). We have to do this to show to Ofsted that the progress the pupils were making based on our initial assessment was good, because the SATs results which seemed overinflated were making good progress impossible.

Can my dd be a teacher now then? She is 12 and is on level 8 on most subjects. Not pe though.