How important is it to follow the EBac route?

[BadTasteFlump]

I am new to this as my eldest is now in year 9. His school is really pushing for any students capable of doing so to take the EBac subjects + triple science too. DS is happy to do this; he loves science and it's a really strong subject for him so he wants to take triple science, a humanity (not decided between Geography & History), a language and one of the arts for his extra subject.

I know he has to take a language to qualify for the EBac, but that's the bit that concerns me. His grasp on languages are not quite up there with his science/maths, which he seems to have a natural ability for. He is never that keen on doing language homework and has complained about not enjoying it before. So I'm thinking that if he chooses a language, he could end up getting a lower grade pass than he would if he picked another subject he seems better at - but that doesn't come under the EBac.

So is it more important to get an EBac at the end, or to get good grades in subjects you enjoy? I am proud that he seems so keen to try his hardest, but am slightly concerned he's being pushed (by the school) into taking subjects he wouldn't otherwise choose...

Depends on what he's likely to do after sixth form! Boradly - if he wants to be a plumber then the EBacc will mean nothing. On the other hand if he's got his sights set on a Russell Group university then he shoudl do the language.

IMO most universities will not be looking to see whether applicants have the EBacc - however a few of the 'top' ones will be looking for a language at GCSE.

HTH

My understanding is that the whole EBac thing is designed to make schools sharpen up their act with respect to the league tables. There has been a lot of cynical manipulation in recent years with schools doing the whole "5 GCSEs including English, Maths and Science" thing & making up the numbers with the easiest subjects for their pupils to get high grades in (not necessarily the ones in the best long-term interests of the child) in order to shove the school higher in the tables. The new league tables will rate the kids on what is being called the EBac ie English, Maths, Science, one Humanities and one language. So the children don't come away with a specific EBac certificate like an International Baccalaureate, the purpose is purely for comparative judging of schools. Having said that, it depends what his longer term ambitions are as an increasing number of universities are insisting on a modern language to at least GCSE as part of the entry criteria and its very favorablyl looked on by employers.

Hi - thanks for replies.

I think part of my problem is that I was pushed into taking French at GCSE, which I hated - and therefore I didn't try very hard and scraped through with a D. It was the only subject I didn't manage a good grade in. He's thinking of taking Spanish or German, which he says he enjoys as they're much 'easier' languages to pick up than French (I have no idea if this is true).

I suppose, as you say, a language is always going to be seen as a good solid qualification, EBac aside, from the point of view of employers & uni. He does want to go on to uni as he is interested in social work/teaching/law - just not sure which of those to go for yet. Better start saving my pennies

Some courses and some universities already require a decent pass at GCSE in a language, and I think with the EBac more schools will push their able students to meet the EBac expectations, and therefore more unis will add those expectations to their entry requirements.

So, if there is a chance he's going to be looking at university, then I think he'd be much safer going with the language even if it's not his favourite area, as you don't want to get to looking at unis and courses and finding he's not eligible to even be considered for some that he might like, and otherwise be up to doing.

i'd get him to take the language not only getting into a RG uni later but also because it will be good for him
a) learning to do something that he thinks is hard will be good for his self confidence and help him at uni later, many students struggle at uni as it is the first time they are faced with things that they find difficult to understand
b) learning about sentence structure, grammer will help with literacy
c) learning one language will give him the tools to pick up other languages if he travels

spanish may be a good choice as it is one of more regular languages. If it is the pronounciation that puts him off what about something like Latin?

I was going to say what trimmings said. It will do him good to have a subject where he has to make an effort. He may find science and maths easy now but at some stage he is going to find it harder. He needs to learn how to learn, so it's better to do it now with a GCSE language than in the finals year of his degree.
Having said that, you need to persuade him that it's his idea or he will back off, like you did. If he is looking at something competitive like law then showing that he is an all-rounder i.e. having the EBacc won't do him any harm.

Senua he seems happy to follow his teachers' advice and take a language - it's me who is (secretly) having a problem with it, but I know I'm maybe just projecting my hatred of French lessons....

. Norty flump.
This is a good sign. It shows that he is growing up; he is his own person and not a mini-you any more. I had to come to terms with the DC not liking my favourite subject - I suppose you are doing the same, but in reverse!

Is it so bad to want a mini-me?

Stop thinking about taking the GCSE but start thinnking about if he will get a C or above - if he doesn't then he won't get ebacc.

Also go for Spanish if he can - it is suposed to be the easiest to learn becaus it is phonetic.

If he's interested in German, I'd encourage him to do that if he's also interested in science and I think it has more kudos with employers (might be relevant in some jobs - big manufacturing country, our biggest export market, etc.). The grammar could appeal to someone with a logical mind with its case declensions, tenses, etc.

Although it would also help any further study of literature (especially old English), history, music, politics, psychology, etc.

Plus the great thing about studying languages is that you don't have as many essays to do - you just need a logical mind and a good memory for vocabulary!

I know University college London introduced it some years ago - but how can you check if the Uni/course has that requirement? I've been on the RG site and can't find anything about it. (Sorry for post hijack - I've seen this kind of statement before and found very little evidence for it)

Balia you would have to look on the individual university websites and check the requirements.

So for example UCL's entry for Astrophysics has the GCSE requirements
"Mathematics and English Language at minimum grade C. For UK-based students a Modern Language GCSE at minimum grade C is required. For students who do not have a Modern Language GCSE UCL will provide opportunities to meet the language requirement once enrolled at UCL"

I would have thought that the language requirements would mostly be for courses where it is relevant so the entry for English at York University has "because of our commitment to the study of foreign literature, we normally expect applicants for single-subject English to have a good grade (at least a B) in a foreign language at GCSE or equivalent."

So yes some university courses do require foreign language gcses as part of their entrance requirements.

as I said on another thread, the ebacc is less about setting kids up for RG Unis (those kids were probably already doing those subjects)
it is about stopping schools shifting the thick kids into easy subjects and stopping trying with them.

My hole digging client does not have ANY GCSEs
luckily he likes digging holes
but it is the ONLY thing the school system of 15 years ago left him qualified for
a failing by any measure
the EBACC would as least have broadened his options and horizons....

A language would be useful for any of the career paths he's looking towards. It's not just about being proficient in a language, although that's important, but it opens them up to a different culture. Plus I find those who have attempted (seriously attempted) to study and understand, maybe even master, another language are much more tolerant of those with English as a second language and the difficulties that poses.

MFL teacher here. There's frankly nothing more excruciating than teaching a year 10 student who makes it abundantly clear that they hate French and are only there under EBACC sufferance.

That said, I agree with whoever said that it is good for students to have to work hard at a subject and not only cherry pick subjects they are good at or enjoy.

One of my best year 9 boys last year dropped French because he didn't enjoy it 'and my mum says I should only do things I enjoy'. Well she's kinda setting him up for disappointment later in life isn't she?

How about if your year 9 child doesnt want to do History or geography? is that going to stop them getting an ebc and then what?

The EBacc shows that a pupil is an academic all-rounder; that they like, amongst other things, Humanities.
Your DC doesn't like Humanities.
So they don't get the EBacc.
QED.

You can't pretend that s/he is something that they are not. If they really are that dead set against Hist and Geog then don't force them to do it. Just demonstrate to University or employers that they have picked up the relevant skills (analysis, comprehension, essay-writing, etc) in other places eg Eng Lit or perhaps RE.

The EBacc is ab irrelevance for university entrance and you should ignore it.

Certainly have no intention of forcing anyone to do anything.

How do you know that Michaela?

University requirements don't currently list EBacc as a specific thing, but I think you're naive if you think the contents of the EBacc are not going to have any effect on what universities require for entry. There is likely to be an assumption that "the right sort of students" will have done what is in the EBacc, and requirements are likely to reflect that, sooner or later.

Re university entrance requirements - THE EBACC IS NOT A QUALIFICATION ergo it can't be on any university's list of requirements.

Trust me - admissions officers are NOT going to be trawling through all their applicants GCSEs and ticking those than have 2x Science, 1x English (and checking it's the right sort of English), 1xMaths, 1 x Historyor Geog and 1 x MFL. Cheching Maths and English yes (and maybe a language), but not all the others!

Offers will be made based on predicted A Levels, then AS results, THEN GCSEs or interview.

Gawd, this is a bit of a headache; DSy7 failed German+French the other day & is talking about dropping them. I hate the way they are taught (seems standard approach for English schools, in spite of being obviously pants, sob), not surprised he's failed, so would be content to let him drop, EXCEPT that I read things like it will mean a difference to whether he might get accepted on a particular Uni course in SIX years time. What a crazy system, that I have to make decisions about his future 6 years hence. I didn't even start studying French until I was 16 (sigh) & I reckon I have about O-level equivalence, nonetheless.

titchy But the OP is asking about language, and people are saying "don't worry even though it's part of the EBacc". What I'm trying to say is - some uni's and some courses already ask for a GCSE language. Because it is being listed as part of the EBacc, which unis will assume more academic students are likely to try to fulfill, it's likely that in future more unis and courses will make it a standard requirement, because they feel they can "expect" it.

I'm quite bothered by advice not to worry about it, as DS went through uni applications last year, and had to cross off one course that could well have suited him, because of an absolute requirement for a GCSE level language which he didn't have. So he had zero chance of getting onto that course, no matter how good he was at the actual subject, or his Higher results, or anything else.