btec / gcse

[theredhen]

I keep getting two.different stories on this.

Some tell me that btecs are more vocational and therefore the very academic kids should stay away from them and also that some schools encourage all children to take them as it makes their league table results look better as they're worth more than gcse in points terms.

However if they're worth more than a gcse then why is that? How does it affect a level choices and after that university choices?

I think that BTECs are good at higher levels / ages. But you may be better off doing GCSEs at 14-16. This is recent Wolf Report which can explain it better!
www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationDetail/Page1/DFE-00031-2011

afaik the schools which do really well in the league tables (i.e. GS) don't offer BTECs at all.

It's interesting about how the higher level BTECs (i.e. the A level equivalents) might affect university offers.

My DD is determined to do a particular BTEC at college. I'm a bit meh.

Science BTEC is as rigorous as triplescience GCSE, but unlikely to be accepted by colleges for A level sciences, or unis. If the student might want to study science further, choose GCSEs, if not, BTEC is a good option.

I don't know about other subjects though.

BTECs are changing for first teaching in 2012, as will the way they appear in league tables. It is extremely unlikely that a school would offer a BTEC where there is an equivalent GCSE to a student with the potential to get a GCSE grade C from now on.

Grimma, GS shouldn't be offering BTEC. It is, as the OP says, a vocational course. Why would it be applicable to an environment highly selelctive for academic achievement??

However, comprehensives need to cater for all types and abilities of children and so BTEC course do have their place. I would agree with UWB though about the distinction level in science being a real challenge.

Highly performing comprehensives do not use the BTEC data within their A-C grade statistics at all. Some school do feel the need to try to convert the BTEC and mix it into their GCSE data.

I also agree with thefallenmadonna in that the way data is going to be reported will not allow for this to happen in the future.

sorry, in answer to the Op..... it would affect A level choices in that generally in our school a science BTEC course would prevent you starting an A level science because A levels are designed to flow directly from the GCSE syllabus. It is counted to towards the general GCSE count needed to enter the sixth form though. Worth checking with your sixth form.

If in doubt at all about future A level choices, sit the GCSE course.

Yes, I know. Sorry, was too terse - my comment was prompted by the OPs 'therefore the very academic kids should stay away from them '. The choice of exam shouldn't be dictated by the environment but by the candidate. At a GS 'academic' can be assumed. In a comp, both may be offered but they should be offered appropriately, not to play league table games.

exactly so, grimma

I do know of a school who reported an A-C grade of 98% but a much, much lower A-C with English and maths. This was simly because, by doing two BTEC courses, pupils could get the equivalent of 8 GCSE grades. However, these same kids were unlikely to have achieved GCSE grade C in English and/or maths.

I think this sort of reporting is very wrong because the qualifications are not the same and the try to compare a vocational course like this to an academic course somehow devalues its own worth.

As others have said; BTECs have their value in a school with a wide range of abilities, i.e. comps. In fact I had a meeting with a parent today about options in my subject where I offer both GCSE and BTEC. The parent was a first pushing for the GCSE route, but I have taught her daughter and there is no way she could succeed at GCSE as she can not perform in exams.

The BTEC however, even though there will be a test in one unit she could achieve as she works hard to improve her work therefore the vocational qualification is most suited to her and this is what should be the case; qualifications/courses to suit the students rather than the league tables/the incorrect views that BTECs hold....

I know of some very bright kids who go to one particular school who are doing lots of btecs. I also know their league table results are good for five gcses but terrible including English and maths. All the kids there tell me it's better for everyone to do btecs.

I get a different story from my sons school which seems to offer very few btecs.

All the kids there tell me it's better for everyone to do btecs.
Better for the kids or better for the school?

Being a bit generic here but GCSE's tend to require tyhe ability to progress locically through a series of topics and then express knowledge and understanding in examinations. BTECs tend to be more practical and coursework based with fewer examinations. They are definitely suited to different types of learners and a child may find they perform better in GCSEs for some subjects and BTECs for others. You may well find that schools are reluctant to offer BTECs to children capable of performing well in GCSEs because of their reflection in league tables (sad but true). Also GCSEs leave more doors open at A level and beyond. If you have a choice over which course your child can follow make sure you get as much info as possible and, crucially, make sure you KNOW the effect on progression through to post 16 study. It is heartbreaking to have to turn kids away at A level because they took BTEC instead of GCSE.

BTECs have been around in various guises for years, and I mean YEARS - what is now BTEC Level 3 used to be an ONC back in the 1950s.

Back then an apprentice aged 14-15 would go to college one day a week for either City and Guilds or BEC/TEC (before they were combined into BTEC)

There are a number of reasons schools / colleges like BTECs, for me it is the freedom to teach in different ways and assess not using exams. I teach BTEC level 3 Health and Social Care - most students go on to be nurses with a few doing ODP or other health related jobs.

BTECs will not get you on to a medicine degree but IMHO will prepare you better for nursing than A Levels mainly because there are so many units that cover so many practical aspects.

An example - when looking at infection control as well as looking at bacteria / viruses / fungi we also cover correct handwashing, how to use protective equipment and a practical which includes students handing out drinks to the class, but before handing them out we paint the hands with facepaint (which is not toxic if swallowed) it shows how normally invisible substances pass from one person's hand to plastic cups to the recipient's mouth.

There will be written work to accopany it, but as a teacher you can add video evidence and utilise skills the students have from outside the school enviroment and you can cross reference work from one unit to another.

Another example

A student produced a menu of a balanced meal with a couple of options for the nutrition unit, but then translated it into Xhosa w so it could be cross referenced tot he communication unit.

IMHO - if your child is easily capable of 10 GCSEs A* - B then they should be doing GCSEs only.

If your child is C/D grade - then stick to GCSE English, Maths, double Science and one other - no employer asks for more than 5 A-C grades - then fill up the timetable with things they enjoy. It is better to have 5 C grades than 10 E grades. Obviously if they are capable of double science, if not then do at least one science.

If your child thrives on coursework or more creative work then fill the time table with a BTEC.

BTEC is absolutely not as rigorous as triple science. You can easily get the pass grade doing nothing more than systematically copying and pasting information from websites. The content could be said to rival or even exceed the rigour of triple science, which is to say that sometimes it contains material that is above GCSE. Dative bonding, for example, is something that chemistry students do not learn until AS, making me wonder why it is included in the KS4 BTEC course. I would not recommend KS4 science BTEC to anyone unless they were very low ability or just couldn't stand science.

I teach Performing Arts and am currently delivering BTEC level 3, BTEC level 2 (old spec), BTEC level 2 (new spec) and GCSE. IMO, it is a more appropriate level 3 qualification for that subject than, say A Level Theatre Studies for students who actually want to do practical drama. Last year, all of the Yr 13 students I taught who wanted to go on to do drama/performance at university were offered places on degree courses. At level 2, the old BTEC spec- the one that is being scrapped, involves at least 4x the amount of work than either the new BTEC or the GCSE. Everything has a "real life" context, and everything counts, which makes it pretty rigorous. Yes, they can go back and improve, but to be fair, they can do that with GCSE performing arts too. The old spec also involves a unit about the history and development of theatre, which encompasses history, politics and all sorts of other stuff and is fascinating to teach. That's been ditched from the new spec (though I will continue to cover the content) I am a big fan of BTECs in the right subject areas, and it makes me quite when they're universally derided.

My daughter passed 8 GCSEs at C and one vocational course at Distinction. Obviously, the GCSEs are really important but, in terms of usefulness she has found it's been the English Maths and ICT vocational qualification which are proving most useful as she goes through year 12.

She picked a BTEC at Level 3 and has just passed two units at distinction. She is working as hard as her hardworking A level mates. Disadvantages that I can see - it's a completely focussed course, so you need to want to go on in future to work or study in that area for it to pay off maximum. Advantage - its vocational and she can actually already create something commercial. It not creating a workplace for her but it is giving her a very good idea of whether she really has the skills needed to make it in the workplace. Another disadvantage - what if the outcome is a no to that, the future options are far more limited I would think (but I don't know for sure) than for someone with average A level grades.

Thetada, I have to agree that to get a pass grade in btec science is a joke. I've had pupils sit core science gcse and scrape a G then do the 2 grades equivalent btec and score a pass- 2 gcse C grades equivalent, I think not.
The sad thing is that the btec is a nice course that has it's place but not when sold as gcse equivalent.

i did both gnvq level 3 business same as btec and alevels

offers at uni

distinction-meant to be a equivilant
a leves ee for same degree.

the gmvv was so time consuming all my 6th form mates had more free time. I also worked part time as single parent family was no ema then it was hard not level of ork but volume much preffered a levels and unis prefered it.