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Secondary education

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Original poster

BTEC sports ? really = 4 GCSE's?

44 replies

raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 00:44

Complicated situation Ds13 with ASD high IQ but also very dyslexic being put through maths and sciences early(1-2-1 tuition) hopefully will then be able to go back to school into, sixth form as smaller, better behaved classes he will be able to cope with. He is also however being offered to do a BTEC in sports which I have been told is equivalent to 4 GCSE's - and what I need to know is it really seen as 4 GCSC's on university applications? I think what I'm trying to say as a maths/science geek with poor reading skills would it be seen as a cop out from more traditional History/ language courses or seen favourably as having broad interests ?

OP posts:
Kez100 · 19/12/2011 00:51

How many option blocks does it use? Does he have any 'fun' GCSEs on his radar already?

chopchopbusybusy · 19/12/2011 00:59

It's not the equivalent of 4 GCSEs but there is nothing wrong with taking it provided he has some other decent subjects. IMO provided he has English lit and language, maths, triple or double science, history and/or geography and a modern foreign language - ie the English baccalaureate - then it's really not that important what his other subjects are.

chopchopbusybusy · 19/12/2011 01:06

Sorry, having reread your OP my reply doesn't really answer your question. Unless your DC wants to do medicine then GCSEs are not normally very relevant. Most decent universities only ask for 3 good a levels. So your DS only needs to worry about achieving the entry requirements for his chosen 6th form.

Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 01:15

No not medicine (would have a very interesting bedside manner Grin) he wants to do maths/engineering/art - I think will probably end up in product design or something similar. He will have triple science, maths, eng lang/lit, itc, maybe geography and Art- no language as his dyslexia is too severe. (will that be a problem?for uni ?) he's only year 9 now and they are putting together a package for him. They are also suggesting the DOE awards - are they worth doing?

I would say he would take maths- physics - biology - art at a level

OP posts:
chopchopbusybusy · 19/12/2011 01:23

DD is considering engineering. She is doing maths, physics, chemistry and biology at AS. She is planning to drop biology for A2. She has been to some (Russell group) open days and provided she achieves AAA for her A2s that's OK and they don't mind which GCSEs she has.
Sometimes universities will look for at least a B in GCSE English language, but for the mech eng courses DD has been looking at they don't seem to mind.

chopchopbusybusy · 19/12/2011 01:27

Oh and she has done bronze, silver and gold DofE. I honestly don't know how relevant they are on application forms but I do know that DD benefitted hugely from doing them. And she really enjoyed them too.

Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 01:38

Thanks Chopchop - I have been looking at the website and agree it looks like as if it has excellent personal development potential though the group work may be very difficult for him at the moment,

OP posts:
Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 01:43

I think they are looking for a bit of ''fill' time as he will be doing some gcscs early and will there for have 3 years doing A levels not 2. I think on balance they have got it right the sports and the DOE, will be a great alternative to just doing an extra a level just for the sake of it and will help broaden his social skills a lot - Thanks for your help

OP posts:
sashh · 19/12/2011 03:38

No one looks at more than 5 GCSEs really - and he will have those.

BTEC is equivelant to 4 GCSEs but it is not GCSEs. They are entirely coursework and from a teacher's point of view much easier to adapt for a dyslexic student. eg part of most of these (I don't teach sport) is health and safety. The teacher chooses the assesement so instead of having to write an essay on H and S your son could be asked to list a number of hazards in a gym, a number of hygeine issues and what goes in a first aid box.

A tick sheet of his answers then goes into his folder.

Keeping folders / evidence straight is excelent prep for further studies

rabbid · 19/12/2011 03:40

ds(18) has been offered some university places with his btecs

amerryscot · 19/12/2011 06:13

No, it's not equivalent to 4 GCSEs. That was designed to bump up poor schools in the league tables. By the time your DS gets there, this will have all disappeared.

The universities put quite a big emphasis on GCSE results, some using the number of A and A* grades to sort applications before reading them.

If he is doing his Maths GCSE early, he needs to keep doing Maths in his down year, eg do Additional Maths, or start is A-level and continue on with Further Maths.

Year 9s are in a tricky situation as courses move from modular to linear. They can't take their GCSEs over three years (which is fairly common for separate sciences).

If his reading/writing are very poor, he will struggle with A-level Biology. For Engineering, Physics/Maths/Further Maths is a good A-level combo; include Chemistry for Chem Eng.

Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 08:27

He will be starting his Maths A level and possibly one science early - so can see him doing further maths anyway. He's entitled to a scribe and a reader if that indicates how sever his dyslexia is ? will have to have a chat about chemistry. Is DTI still seen as a bit of a soft subject @ A level ?

OP posts:
amerryscot · 19/12/2011 08:36

It is very hard to dictate/scribe for Maths. For example, the student can't tell the scribe to write down 'two squared' - they have to say '2 superscript 2'. You can imagine how complicated it gets with A-level where there are more symbols to use.

What help is he getting with his dyslexia?

amerryscot · 19/12/2011 08:41

I am a little concerned when you say that he is doing one of his sciences early.

If he is in Year 9, his normal timeline will be to do linear exams by the time he gets to Year 11. I don't think it is possible to mix and match the two systems. I can imagine it if he completes all three sciences on the same timetable as the current Y10. This is really worth checking with the school, and also to check that the school understands the new system.

There may be the same issues in Maths.

What is the rationale behind doing these courses early? Students usually get better grades if they wait to do them in Year 11.

Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 09:03

He's not ''in school'' he is being 1-2-1 tutored at the moment and HE - He has 3 hours a week specialist dyslexia tutoring. He will only need a reader for maths not a scribe - though is practising dictation a lot with his dyslexia tutor for other subjects. The hope is that he will be able to then go into the sixth form a year early for Maths and possibly another subject as it will be a small and ''better'' behaved group that he will manage. Grades will not be a problem to be honest. how this will all fit together is however all up in the air! He will be supported and will continue with private tuition for his other subjects and will also be doing forests school, a btec is sports and DOE :) Hence me opening with Its complicated !

OP posts:
Original poster
raspberryroop · 19/12/2011 09:33

Thank you everyone for the help - I will be much better informed when the LEA get back to me now !

OP posts:
cricketballs · 19/12/2011 20:29

amerryscot; a BTEC diploma is the equivalent to 4 GCSEs and the amount of coursework that the diploma requires proves this. They have never been designed to bump up the league tables given that BTEC qualifications have been around since the conception of GCSEs (prior to league tables) but unfortunately, a lot of schools/parents have seen them as this and as such they have acquired the poor reputation that you have fallen victim to.

In terms of the league tables, current year 9 students have been given a grace year and as such their current courses will be included in the headline figures.

For a dyslexic student it is the ideal course as they can improve on their coursework until the end date in year 11 (usually may) and this ensures that they achieve a high grade. However, this does not mean every student can achieve as without the understanding of the theory then there is no possibility of applying this to the vocational setting that a BTEC assignment requires and even less chance of evaluating the theory against the vocational setting that the higher grades dictate.

In terms of uni applications, unless your ds wishes to study medicine/Oxbridge then having a BTEC as well as GCSEs in the main subject areas will not be held against them; rather it shows that they are capable of more than straight academic study but also the application of their knowledge (which is more than helpful for a degree study). It is also worth pointing out that most unis accept a BTEC National Diploma in place of A levels for entry

DialMforMummy · 19/12/2011 21:08

Are you in education cricketballs?

nbee84 · 19/12/2011 21:22

Just to add to other posts -

My ds did a sports BTech because he knew he would enjoy it. He also did triple science and maths a year early along with a few other GCSE's.

He then went on to do Maths, Physics, Chemistry and English Literature at AS and is doing Maths, Physics & English Lit to A2.

He's just applied to do Mechanical Engineering at Uni and all his applications have been to Russell Group Uni's. He's just had 5 offers [proud mum emoticon] so no problem with his BTech at GCSE. He would have loved to have gone to Imperial College but it is as hard to get in there as to Oxbridge (A*AA to get in) so it's possible they would have looked at his GCSE's for there but I don't know this for sure.

cricketballs · 19/12/2011 21:46

dial - yes I am a secondary school teacher; teaching KS3, BTEC, GCSE, AS and A2

adamschic · 19/12/2011 22:21

DD did a Btec in business as well as hard GCSE's, so far she has had 2 offers at good unis.

She achieved a Distinction and whilst it wasn't counted as 4 GCSE's by a Russell Group Uni for Medicine it was counted as one A.

Loshad · 19/12/2011 22:21

cricketballs - could not disagree with you more - btecs are propping up schools in the league tables, also responsible for mlg inflation for all current gcse students.
imo for dyslexic students they aren't even the best option as there can be a lot of writing for the coursework as opposed to a scribe for the exams.
Nor do i think you are correct re current year 9s - my understanding, and my schools, is that their "worth" will be reduced in half eg our current btec course will be one gcse equivalent not 2, and there will be a new terminal exam of 40%.
It's total bollocks to say students must understand to achieve with btec, my btec students often don't, and i have worked in schools where they definately don't, hence the poor viewing of these qualifications by decent unis.
Very bright students will not be penalised by having them but they certainly add nothing to their cvs, and basically are just time fillers/league table inflaters for the schools.
(secondary science teacher with husband who as part of his job deals with uni admissions to a competitive course)

amerryscot · 19/12/2011 22:36

I agree Loshad.

I would also like to stress that the situation for current Year 9s is very different from the past. They are in the cohort who will be doing linear exams, not modules. It means they can't start any modular courses early, unless they are certificated at the end of Year 10.

Current Year 10s have to follow the 40% rule.

I don't think this has sunk in yet in some schools. The gravity of it only came to me when I recently attended an Edexcel training course.

I can't imagine a student being tarnished by doing BTECs as long as they have a reasonable number of academically rigorous GCSEs. They cannot be penalised by their schools playing the league table game. They do need to be aspiring towards 7 or 8 A/A* grades in rigorous subjects in order to have their application looked at by RG universities. It is quite wrong to say that only A-levels count. At the time of application, the only cashed-in qualifications they have are GCSEs, and their performance tells a lot about a student. They particularly need to do well in subjects that they do not continue into the sixth form as their GCSEs are the last record of these subjects.

As for the intrinsic mertis of BTEC, well that is a whole debate in itself.

One of the things that will be important for the OP's son given his non-traditional educational background is to demonstrate transferable skills in his personal statement. If the BTEC sports allows him to demonstrate teamwork, communication, perseverance or anything else, then that is a real bonus and definitely worth pursuing.

cricketballs · 19/12/2011 22:41

for the dyslexic students the fact that they can constantly improve on their coursework is the reason why so many achieve in BTEC (they also feel independent/in control as they can do this without the need for a scribe)

for the current year 9 students there is a grace year (as long as they are currently completing the extended certificate or diploma) and this has been confirmed by DfE. (details here

In the future, BTEC will contain an external test (although the draft specifications are yet to be approved).

In terms of having an understanding, whilst a pass would be possible without a basic understanding (as so a GCSE at a C grade which just needs facts) in order to achieve a merit or higher then there is no possibility to achieve the criteria of comparing/analysing/evaluating without having an understanding and this has been the downfall of the qualification as so many have just seen the requirements of a pass (SLT of schools are just to blame for this as are DM readers!) rather than also look at the higher grade needs for the qualification.

In terms of just inflating the league tables, whilst I agree that many establishments have taken this attitude, this was not the intention of the qualification (unlike OCR ICT Hmm but to give students a different dimension for their learning and the application of their learning. A BTEC stood me in great stead for my former career as an engineer before I undertook re-training (A levels and a degree) to become a teacher. Whilst in my former career it was very easy to spot those whose qualifications were 'academic' rather than vocational.......

MillyR · 19/12/2011 22:47

Sorry, but I don't understand what is happening with GCSEs. Is there a thread on this somewhere?

DS is in year 9. The only GCSE courses he has started are for his 3 separate sciences. He is not doing any assessments or exams connected with them this year though.

Can anybody explain what is happening?