SW London secondary schools for average achieving DS??

[majurormi]

My ds is not an academic superstar. Does okay but needs some support and a bit dreamy. Sadly london day schools for the average achiever are few and far between. We are looking at Emanuel and Ibstock. The London Oratory is a back up (we are practicing and active in church Catholics so this should not be a problem). Any thoughts about these schools and I am hitting the ones I need to? Thinking of taking the Emanuel 10+ as the competition is less fierce.

There is a real shortage of boys day school places in south and south west London. Latymer Upper used to be the fall back till it went mixed, and with the pressure for places Emanuel is becoming increasingly selective. Ibstock, once people's fall back is increasingly a first choice.

What about St Benedicts? I was talking to a current parent earlier in the week. The much reported problems, whilst they should not have happened, took place a long time ago. The school is now governed very differently and is apparently a lovely school.

It depends where you live. Dulwich is a very large school and takes from quite a broad range. Harrodian is considered a gentler school but increasingly popular, so can be quite tricky to get into. Radnor House, a new school in Twickenham, is attracting a lot of interest. If you are really central, Portland Place is a possibility. Other than that quite a lot of people seem to end up with Preps up to 13 and boarding after, even though this is not what they planned.

Good luck. Trying at 10+ sounds sensible. It then gives you a second chance at 11+.

Plenty of non-selective state schools to consider also, depending on where you live (as they mostly admit by proximity).

So many people have this problem and from what I can see, some tutor excessively to try and get their DS up to the standard of the very academic schools. I agree with the names given above by Needmoresleep - A few boys from our school went to Radnor House in Twickenham last year (into year 8 and 9) and are really enjoying it. Aswell as the other names above, you could look at The Hall, Wimbledon or Reeds in Surrey. However, I don't know anyone with DC at those schools. Good Luck. HTH.

I'm afraid I have nothing to suggest, but it does make me wonder how everyone has suddenly become such a high achiever that there's nowhere for anyone slightly less stellar to go.

While we're on the subject, what about average girls in the same area?

Girls have a really good range of schools. They have the mixed schools mentioned above: Emanuel, Ibstock, Harrodian, Latymer Upper (easier for girls by many accounts), Portland, Radnor House and St Bens. GDST such as Putney, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Streatham and Notting Hill - yes some more academic than others but its the competition for limited places that creates the problem for the boys. More House, Queensgate, Queens College, St James, Putney Park, 2x Francis Holland, St Augustine's Priory and probably more. Assuming that the most academic girls have been creamed off by SPGS, City and G&L, at least some of these schools will be happy to take "average" girls.

There also seems to be a better choice for girls in the state sector, including Lady Margaret, Greycoats, and Sacred Heart.

If you listen to West London parents you could sometimes wonder if there are any children who are less than brilliant. Of course there are. However for some strange reason the private sector does not seem to provide school places for the boys.

It's interesting that all the boys' schools have gone co-ed, but none of the girls' schools. Someone told me this is because people still think the education of their boys is more important so will send a girl to a school they've already chosen for a boy but not a boy to a school they've chosen for a girl. Of course, it could just be to improve their results, as girls achieve more highly all the way to GCSE.

I wonder if it's also influenced by the fact that traditionally in 'private school families' a lot of boys have gone to board at 13, so there are lots of boys' prep schools in SW London but very few senior schools. So at 11+ there's a real squeeze on places, as most entrants are from state primary.

Does that mean that at least the boys aren't facing competition from highly trained prep school candidates at 11? As a mother of primary school girls that's one of the things that worries me most - maybe because I don't know anyone who's at one of those schools I'm not sure just how much of a disadvantage my children are at.

I do often hear that 'everybody ends up somewhere' - boys as well as girls. Is that not people's experience though?

My guess is that the squeeze at 11 + has six causes:

1. A lot of areas in West London have good state primaries but less popular state secondaries. Add a rapidly rising population and it is increasingly hard to get the school of your choice, particularly Tiffin or the Oratory, so private is used as the fall back.
2. It is relatively hard for someone not at a trad prep school to prepare for 13+ entry at Kings/St Pauls/Westminster, so these schools are effectively out of the equation if you don't get into the prep school.
3. Trad prep/boarding school families are perhaps cash strapped and see day as cheaper than boarding.
4. Latymer, Emanuel, St Bens have turned co-ed so half the number of places for boys
5. There is a large and growing expatriate community in London, including Russians, people wanting to avoid political uncertainty in the Middle East as well as American, European and Asian professionals. Education for the children is seen as a good reason to move to London.
6. 13+ places at London day schools other than the three mentioned above are becoming increasingly rare as schools fill up with good candidates at 11+. Boys who dont have conditional places for those three and who are not planning to board increasingly take places they are given at 11+, and offers might not be repeated at 13+.

I am not sure I really believe the highly trained prep school argument for boys. Many of the schools will take about 60% from the state sector. They are testing for potential so rely on VR, non-VR, maths and English. Many state school kids will have been preparing for state 11+ exams, the Wandsworth test, Greycoat language aptitude test and the like. Prep schools are preparing for Common Entrance so lots of Latin and Greek and geography, and so no reason why they should have an advantage. Girls are a bit different as the girls only preps in West London will have the West London 11+ schools in their sights. However it is not in their long term interests to squeeze a girl into a school where they will struggle.

The everyone ends up somewhere argument is true to some extent. However some boys are finding themselves travelling further than they would have expected, or boarding.

The pressures are as bad for sixth form, where a significant proportion of applicants will be from overseas. I heard that the number applying to Westminster has doubled in a year. I have also heard that some boys schools who actively recruit for the sixth form particularly in the Far East, are now increasingly fussy about what their own "average" pupils need to achieve at GCSE in order to progress into the sixth form.

I find it interesting that state schools are not being considered for "average" pupils. Most (if not all) London MNers who go private seem (claim) to do so on the basis that their DC is bright (most kids are above average, don't you know) and needs to be in an academic environment. (Now, I personally don't buy that it is true that all state comprehensives will not cater for those, since most (if not all) set/stream and have an internal grammar stream.)

But if you take that consideration out of the equation, why not consider state schools, is it really then to avoid having to mix with oiks, or what?

Do you live in London?

In our case the Local Authority was unable to offer a place for DS (they did phone up in June saying they might have a place in a completely different borough, but then did not get back and we were not the only ones affected), and offered my daughter a place in a school three bus rides away. At the time the LA were short the equivalent of 3 secondary schools and 20 primary schools. We already saw the problem at primary school stage and it was obvious that it could only get worse.

Ours is not the only Central London borough struggling to provide enough places, and I know that whatever is said politically, they recognise that the private sector is usefully taking some of the strain. (OK I bumped into our Lead Member for Education who I know and who chided me for sending DC to private schools, but who then admitted that they needed to stay there!)

I doubt "most if not all London MNers claim their DC are bright". OP is clearly not claiming this. Given many private schools are selective the brighter your child, the easier it is. We have been there with DD. The poor child flogged through 7 sets of exams, state and private, though did surprise everyone by getting a school she was not predicted to get, and is flourishing. (Not bright or religious enough to get into our nearest state school.) If she had been a boy she would not have had seven sets of exams she could sit, and the competition would have been tougher. And three years down the line the problem appears to be getting worse.

I dont think there is one simple solution. It is not that MNet DC are brighter, it is not really state or private. At the end of the day too many children, not enough school places.

Yes, I live in London, but the OP is certainly casting the net wide - and so not sure distance appears to be too much of a concern. The responses are all over the place - Latymer to Dulwich and back again.

There seems to be an assumption on the part of the OP (and in most responses) that state does not appear to be worth considering, and was just wondering why? My reference to "bright" DCs of other MNs - I thought it was fairly clear - was to draw attention to the motivation for going private here. OP didn't say that there was no chance of getting into her local state school for whatever reason.

Out of interest, why were you not initially offered a place for DS? And why was the one you were eventually offered so far away? Was there really nothing nearby that you could have got into on published admissions criteria?

No. Our Borough has several education black holes. We were not the only ones so affected. Three children from our nearest primary which serves a very deprived catchment had no places until after the end of the summer term. Really really distressing for kids, and a very good reason to opt out if you can. DS was never offered a state school place. DD got one but really an unacceptable distance away, in part because she was not bright enough for one of the selective places at our nearest school. .

I am surprised if you live anywhere near Central London that you are not aware of this. It is a huge issue. Hence my sympathy with OP, who is facing some of the fall out.

I am also surprised that you think Dulwich to Latymer is a long way. People equidistant from both are now looking at Radnor House in Twickenham, Reeds Cobham and schools in Croydon. Dulwich buses have long served Kensington, Hampton/LEH buses also pick up kids from well into town. The same happens with state schools which have non-catchment places, like Tiffin, St Olaves, Graveney, Wallington and so on.

I suspect I am reacting to a seeming MN assumption that everything is fine and dandy with local state schools, and that any one who seeks alternatives is in some way over pernikety. This is not the way to solve the many symptoms of the Central London education problem. (Not enough places, problems recruiting key workers, extremes of rich and poor with a missing middle, racism - affecting both black and white and presumably shades in the middle, rabid tutoring to gain sought after places in both state and private schools, low attainment in some schools, extreme pressure in others, etc)

The private sector rations by ability, the state by catchment. However the fundamental problem is that there are not enough school places for a growing population.

I know of shortages, yes, esp in Lambeth (where I live). New schools have opened or expanded to deal with it (Lambeth Academy a new academy in Brixton). There are good proxmity schools and good selective (or random entry schools) - all of which could be considered for an "average" child. There are options. The proximity ones may well require moving for (and if you can afford fees, you can afford to move). Not saying anyone should do that, there ar other reasons to stay in an area (and I will likely pay, not move, if don't get my DD into my choice), all I am doing is wondering why this thread is not even going there.

Further, the OP didn't specify an area and so we don't know if she is in the same black hole as you.

Pmsl at this thread! You need to make it clear you are talking about private schools.

Then we probably agree more than we had realised, and I assume that OP, whose post refers to private schools who allocate places through competitive entrance exams, with a fallback of a state school who rations places through the mechanism of religious practice.

Many people will take a place, if offered, at a properly comprehensive, comprehensive school. There are lots of advantages. Local, free, representative of the community our children are growing up in, scope for bright kids to do well, and room for the average and below average. The issue arises when that option is not available. The assumption is often that you will somehow find the money and pay, and many independent schools expect to take around 60% from state primaries. The problem though is that it is not that straightforward.

We hit the barrier at primary stage when the local authority was hit by a sudden surge in demand in our area and struggled to provide places for all their four year olds, and it became clear that this was going to be a problem throughout. Our local secondary was in special measures, and frankly failed to provide an acceptable level of education. (I mentored a bright kids who had a shockingly narrow set of GCSE options.) However we soon discovered that some private schools were trying to sell us things we did not want to buy (poshness etc - though I liked the idea of not having school on a Friday afternoon to allow parents, and possibly teachers, to escape to their country home). Then came the problem of actually getting a place, with all sorts of tests at 3+.

That bulge has fed through to secondary. If you are thinking of a private fall back, particularly if you have boys, live in SW London, and your child is of average ability, it is quite difficult.

Of course there are alternatives: moving; attending church, tutoring, which increase your chances of a place at a sought after state school. But my assumption was that OP was asking about alternative Independent options now that traditional fall backs like Emanuel and Ibstock are increasingly popular and becoming more selective.

South London does not really have the same problem. The Kent Grammars, Wallington, Graveney etc, top slice quite a lot of the brighter children in the cohort, as do the Dulwich schools, meaning that other private schools in the area often have quite a broad intake.

Totally agree with what you say (although as mentioned this thread does not - except for you and me - even mention state options).

Particularly like: some private schools were trying to sell us things we did not want to buy (poshness etc... )

Yes, been to a few - Whitgift springs to mind - where I' thinking: "Really the grounds don't need to be this nice, there doesn't really need to be a zoo on site, or bonsai, or quite so MUCH choice of sports, can't you just get rid of all that and take a few K of the fees, please". I tend not to buy 5 holidays (4 will do), so not sure I particularly want to buy 5* facilities for my DS to fence in! That's off my list.

The educational environment is really what I want. FWIW (we are hijacking the thread a little here, aren't we?). City of London to me seems a good pared down sensible school - but selective of course.

Op mentions the London Oratory. State. Tony Blair's sons went there

If you thought Whitgift was posh you would have loved some of the Central London preps and pre-preps. My husband refused point blank to look at the school where boys where pink corduroy knickerbockers, and looked very pale when a pompous Head told a room full of parents of 2 year olds that his was a rugger school and that he used to teach at Eton. On another school tour only 2 out of the six sets of parents were not accompanied by relocation agents, and I like the notably affluent West London school where the person doing the school would then accompany everyone to the car park. The rumour being that he wanted to check what sort of car you drove.

Have been to sports fixtures at Whitgift. What is wrong with white wallabies?

A total hijack of a post. However Whitgift is a good example of a school which has become quite hard to get into, so even if you liked it you might find that they dont like you.

SW London / Lambeth also has Dunraven which is now in the top 10% of school in the country of it's type (streamed comp) and Elm Green, both of whihc have v good reputations with average and high achiveing children. Tight distance, though.

I live in Fulham. The reason I am not looking at state is because my son is not that academic, I want him to have greater exposure to art, D&T and music. I know the state sector due to funding cannot offer these opportunities to the extent a public can. I would love a good state school and are looking at the Oratory as a fallback but I have heard the discipline is a bit hard core and it is highly academic with little exposure to the softer courses.

Out of interest, given all the talk of how hard to get into all of these schools seem to be (both the more academic and less academic) - and getting harder - does anyone have experience of simply not being able to get their child into any private school however much they wanted to...and going state instead? Genuinely curious. I've never heard of any specific examples (whereas you do hear about people being in the opposite position, wanting state but not getting offered any places anywhere...).

Or do people just end up looking further afield than they might otherwise want?

We're thinking about private for secondary and I suffer from paranoia brought on largely by reading threads like this but DH is firmly of the view that (it being a free market after all) we will not have a problem parting with our cash if we are desperate to do so. Is he right? Presumably the key thing is doing your research and figuring out which schools your DC are most suited to. My DCs will be at a 'good' (not outstanding) state primary and will not necessarily get any advice from head teacher about local independent secondaries so we'll be on our own on that.

Sorry for another thread hijack.... (but it is relevant, in my defence!).

I don't live in London. My DCs comp provides a huge range of art and D T activities, definitely to rival any of the private ones locally.
For girls there is a wide range of private schools. However for boys the choice is one highly academic school, which seems to get harder to get into every year. Or the local Comps. Or commuting a long way either by train or school coaches, which tends to mean the boys don't get home until 6 pm or later, and still have Prep then.
I know of several parents who have happily sent their sons to the local Comps, and if they get into the excellent one they often choose it for younger sons (it regularily sends several pupils to Oxbridge etc.).

I think if you really want a private school you will get a child into one. But this may involve boarding or a long commute, and may not get as good results or provide as good an experience as a good State school. If your child is extremely clever etc. of course they maybe able to get into one of the top private schools with no problem (even from a state primary).