Should teachers expect pupils to miss educational activities for detentions?

[circular]

Due to a homework misunderstanding, the subject teacher set a group detention for half the class, same day lunchtime.

DD explained she had an instrument lesson at that time, and as it was same day, could not be rearranged. She said DD could come after school that day instead. but DD had (school) orchestra practice. After muttering something about detentions not being arranged around kids social lives, it was rearranged for a lunchtime next week. DD has extra English tuition at that time, but felt it would be classed as backchat if she said anymore at that point.

Not sure why she told me, as she doesn't want me to intervene. I was quite annoyed, as the detention itself seemed quite unfair. Seems the teacher was in a bad mood that day. I have suggested she sends a polite email explaining the situation, (copying in the head of English who set up her tuition that this clashes with) and offering to go another lunchtime.

For the record, DD is in yr10 and has never had a detention before.
After school detentions would clash with instrument, music theory, school choir and school orchestra four days out of 5.

Interested what others think, especially teachers.

I don't think your DD's teacher is being unreasonable.
I'm a bit about the "homework misunderstanding".
She is giving up her lunchtime to ensure her pupils do the work they missed.
She has offered two further alternatives because the first time wasn't convenient for your DD. Remember this is extra of her time she is giving up.
I think you should feel grateful that this teacher takes your DD's education so seriously!

Why half the class and not the whole class?
Had they been warned about the consequences of continuous disruptive behaviour? Or what ever triggered the detention?
What year is DD in?

"DD is in yr10"

So they hadn't done work that had been set, which impacts on the next lesson.
Then yes, a detention is usually the consequence in order to get the work completed, and if it impacts on other activities that are extra-curricular, then that's what happens. If she'd had to miss football practice or drama, that would have been her fault for not doing the homework.
Teacher does seem to have been flexible up to a reasonable point. But detention is a sanction and so is inconvenient.

Y10 is GCSE and so homework is an essential aspect of their learning.
I really shouldn't post in a hurry, you gave all the information in your OP but I just didn't read carefully enough. Apologies for incompetence.

If the detention was fair (that is, it broke a rule) then yes. It sounds like your DD is a busy bunny and it would pretty much always impact on her life and that is what detentions are about! My son would be the same, thinking about it. I think the teacher was reasonable in accepting a different time and I also think your daughter vary mature to know exactly when to stop! Let her do it and, I suspect, it'll not happen again in a hurry as she seems she will have learned her lesson.

If the detention itself was dealt out when it ought not that's not fair (but I'd only get involved myself if it happened more regularly) I'd not for first time as its too much of a risk with your child to argue on their side against detentions (- they may start to think they are immune if they can convince mum it was unfair)

Re the homework misunderstanding.

ALL homework is accessible from a gateway off the school website.
Teacher put homework on board ends of lesson, and said it would be on the gateway also. Homework was due in next lesson, two days later.

DD relies on the gateway, and it wasn't there. Parents also have access and I never saw any homework set for that subject. I checked again after DD told me and it was there marked as "new" on the day it was due in.

So it looks like the teacher was very Kate putting the homework on line, the half if the class that did do it would have been those that wrote it down and were not reliant on the gateway.

Kez - 50/50 whether detention was fair, IMHO.

Teacher only rearranged whole group for her own reasons.

Yes - DD is extremely busy, and not too well organised, which is why I check online most days to see how much homework she has. But she really cannot afford to miss the English tuition.

"I have suggested she sends a polite email explaining the situation, (copying in the head of English who set up her tuition that this clashes with)"

I think that I might do it the other way round. Send the e-mail to the English HoD explaining, well in advance, why DD is not coming to the extra tuition (because she can't change yet another date), CCing the subject tutor. Then leave it and see if machinations within the school produce a better result that everyone is happy with. It would be better put in writing because it is quite a complicated story that the HoD won't have time to stand and listen to.

I would be tempted to use the opportunity to have a chat with DD along the lines of "for want of a nail, a shoe was lost". It is scary how one little mishap can cause a bigger mishap, which causes the next, which causes ...

OP I think you are losing sight of the bigger picture here. Your DD is in yr 10 so presumably is working towards controlled assessments. Therefore she needs to keep up with her classwork (& homework); this should take priority over extra tuition.
I think you are annoyed with the teacher for giving your DD her first ever detention. The fact that your DD doesn't want you to intervene maybe because she recognises, on some level, that the DT is justified.

Seems the teacher was in a bad mood that day. I think you should be more supportive of a teacher who is working hard for your DD to do well.

MidnightHag NO it's the bigger picture I am loking at.

Understand fully the importance of year 10 as does DD.

Not working on any controlled assessments yet For the subject the homework was missed in. Teacher has explicitly said they must not do the work before the detention, which looks to me as it is more for punishement than for their benefit.

For English, DD IS currently working on controlled assessments, and they are taking language GCSE in year 10. The extra tuition is to try and get her at least a B grade. The school arranged it as they (finally) agree with us that she has not made enough progress in English since she started there.

Most of the out of hours music stuff is compulsory for GCSE Music.

I do think it is U to expect a pupil to miss compulsory activities for a GCSE subject, and also to miss paid instrumental tuition. But of any of her activities are not totally compulsory then that is when she should do it (can't see why she can't miss an orchestra session unless she is a soloist and her absence would make it pointless for all the other players).

And in this case, as there appears to have been an error in placing the homework on the gateway, then it is also unfair to punish the pupils who use that gateway.

I think it would be worth raising this, not in terms of when to fit in the detention, but to ask for clarification about why the homework was not available on the gateway at the right time - because you do not want this error to arise again (was it teacher oversight or an IT problem, if the latter, has it been fixed?). And to establish what DD should do should an expected homework not appear in future (email teacher? Find teacher in school? Get a hard copy from somewhere?).

Something that is couched firmly and supportively in terms of avoiding future problems should not go amiss.

Agree meditrina - she does have a lead part in the orchestra, but this or choir could be missed or late as a one off.
The theory and instrumental lessons are paid for. Would have more of an isue with her missing the instrument lesson as that is individual.

The Englsh teacher comes in specially at that time, and again that is individual.

DD will sort out when to fit the detention in herself. I would like to drop a mail regarding what happened on the gateway, but not without DDs permission.

Can I just say, fair or not fair, I think you've done the right thing letting her sort it out and I commend her for wanting to. It shows maturity and confidence and accepting 'life is sometimes unfair'; facing it the best she can.

Yes, you're doing the right thing in leaving DD to sort it out herself.

(Thought of the bleedin' obvious after I'd pressed post on my previous - but once she realised it wasn't available on line, then perhaps she could phone a friend who she knows writes it down from the lesson?)

Just wanted to day thought people were being a little harsh on you and your DD circular, but meditrina seems to have levelled things off a bit.

I think your DD got tied in a bit of a knot with first the lesson and then the orchestra clashing with the detention and felt she'd lost all bargaining power, but the extra English lesson is clearly important as is her homework.

The teacher probably made a mistake but was I expect annoyed that nobody had asked her why the homework hadn't been posted, or found out from other students what it was as they knew they had been given some. She would be extra annoyed that so many of them had not done the work using the lack of information on the website as an excuse. I'm not surprised the kids did it, sounds like the kind of thing I would have done/or not done when I was at school.

But that is irrelevant really, I think Senua's approach is a good one and make it clear you aren't criticising the detention, but also ask as Meditrina suggests what she should have done.

Good luck.

Yes, I thought that too intially.
But she forgot there was any, not WHAT it was.

Crikey, what a lot of extra work the teacher is making for themselves.

If I had such a large proportion of students not completing homework for the reason given (not on the internet as expected) then I would be cross, but then ask for it to be in the next lesson, no excuses.

If I'd set a detention for something reasonable, then I would expect that to take priority over an endless stream of extra-curricular activities (I would make an exception for an important match or paid instrument tuition).

If I had students not doing homework I had told them about just because it wasn't online then I would stop putting it online. It is there as an added check not instead of writing it down.

There we differ. I tell my kids to write down 'see internet' if they want to. Because for some of them if they look up the questions on the internet, they've got a chance of actually doing the right work. Otherwise, half the time they don't copy them down correctly, the other half of the time they can't read their own handwriting.

And don't ask me why they think doing questions on percentages is reasonable when we have spent all week doing fractions, because I haven't a clue.

If th4e h/w was on the board, why wasn't it copied down? They need to learn to copy it accurately and if they can't read their own handwriting, how do they expect examiners to be able to when they sit GCSEs?

I am strict about their homework presentation. As far as I know there isn't anything in their GCSE which requires them to copy information accurately from a board at the front of the room.

But noble you get them to write they have homework which didn't happen in this case.

But if I told them the questions were on the internet and they weren't, then that's my fault not the students' that they didn't do the homework.

We would not prevent a student from attending their paid peri lessons, but we wouldn't worry too much about clubs (unless it is choir and then we'd have scary music teacher to deal with).