I can't really help DS, 12, with friendships, can I? (sorry, long!)

[ProperLush]

Realistically, it really is all up to him now, isn't it?

Briefly: He's a bit reticent, and will never be the centre of a social crowd. He moved into Y6 of a primary that 'feeds' our secondary of 'choice' (bearing in mind a) we weren't at all happy with the Y5 catchmented secondary and b) he would not have been in any of the same sets as his 'mates' from Y5). He sort of made a few friends at the primary, but we knew he, with his personality, would have been unable to 'break into' any 6 year old friendship groups.

Anyway, secondary (he's now in Y8) has ostensibly been 'fine'. He's doing OK academically BUT I'm not sure he has any proper 'friends'. Weekends are getting a bit tricky as DS2 (Y6) heads out with his mates (and with the advantage of joining the feeder at the start of Y4 AND the ability, in primary, of mum being able to facilitate some friendships!) but DS1 has a mate who he might meet up with but it always seems to be entirely at this other boy's convenience and if he hasn't had a better offer. And DS never invites this boy into our house. I am aware that the other boys in his tutor group go to the cinema together, or trick or treating but DS1 never gets asked along. I'm not sure how he even knows about such events, tbh.

I try ever so gently to talk to him about how to 'nail' friendships but I am also very aware of the risks of him suddenly thinking 'I'm Billy No Mates! Mum thinks so, too!'. I think he lacks the confidence to 'join in' with the chat like, presumably 'Hey, what time will we meet/where tonight for Halloween?' and for him to say 'OK, I'd be in on that, see you there' . The instigator of the ToT is local but arrived in the area after primary so he's not pulling on Primary mates, but he is, apparently 'popular' and DID invite DS1 to his paint ball party last year but a few initial Y7 calls of 'Mum can this boy come home with me for an hour tonight?' from the homeward bus have dried up. Presumably he doesn't find DS1 engaging enough!

FWIW I passed him at the (late) school bus stop yesterday morning. There was a clump of maybe 20-25 kids there, including 2 from DS's tutor, I happen to know. I thought 'I'll never see DS in that lot!' but I did- standing 3 paces away from all the rest, alone! He says 'They are all boring idiots who only talk about violent computer games and football so I sit by myself on the bus'.

DS does Scouts with an altogether different bunch of boys, some of whom he's been in scouting with since he was 6 but they also never seem to lead to proper 'friendships'

Now, on the face of it, DS1 doesn't seem that bothered but I sense he is. I know he's desperate to appear 'cool' so would never confess to me that he feels a bit friendless. But I worry that gradually, as is already happening, DS1 will find himself alone of a weekend, knocking around the house with us when DS2 is out and about. Currently, DS1 might hang out a bit with DS2 and his mates but he is aware it's a bit uncool, being 12 and hanging with 10 year olds- even though many are taller than him! I tell DS1 to get the mobile numbers of a few more boys in his class for long holidays etc but he never seems to 'get around to it'. I suspect he's scared of ridicule or rejection, tbh.

FWIW, DH is a loner. He doesn't have many friends (and seems 'OK' about it) but he has formed some friendships over drinking real ale and beer festivals so I am thinking DS1 probably takes after him but I still wondered if there was anything I might do like IS there any point in talking to the school? We have very little contact with school- I have never eyeballed his Tutor, for instance! But really, is Y8 too late for me to do anything apart from trying to pitch 'encouragement' at the right level?

WWYD?

My Y9 DD is just like this always has been.
She has a couple of very special friends, but they are family friends she's know all her life.
She's no idea how to make friends DH and I are hopeless too so can offer useful advice.
DD2 is no help at all because she the total opposite always off somewhere with some one and has no idea why the rest of us are so useless.
I think you just have to be supportive and encourage activities where he may meet light minded people.
Personally I found school got much better in Y9 and 10 as exams focused the mind on what was important and my peer group matured past the petty bullying and gossip stage.

What's his tutor like? Could you ring them and ask
(I've engineered stuff for friendships in my tutor group before!) or do they have a nurture unit would could help? Even just to get an idea of what he's like at school.

As easy as it is to say, try not to worry. If he seems quite happy he probably is and he might just need to grown into himself iyswim? Give him 4 years and he might come into his own at uni, eso if your DH is similar?

I don't think that talking to the school would achieve much really. What is he interested in? I would find an out of school club that he is really keen on and encourage friendships in that direction. Hopefully, this would help him build confidence and relax more in the social situations at school.

lurking for inspiration as I think we will be in the same place with DS (currently Y5) - he is not unpopular, but is definitely not one of the "cool" boys and is all too aware of that fact - and I am truly rubbish at making friends so don't really know how to help

Thanks for replying, both!

I think I might be a bit hormonal which has made me more sensitive. The 'friend' thing's been an ongoing problem, on and off. I recall going to pick him up from a (private) nursery in Oz, aged 3 1/2, and seeing him alone in the busy playground watching the door anxiously for my arrival. The 'best' time was probably Y3-5 where he got a bit of a group (though his best friend was a girl whom he's still friends with when her mum and I get together, but of course, at 12, M/F friendships can get tricky) but the reality was none of those boys were likely to be in the same sets as DS1 as he is reasonably academically clever (say group 2 out of 5 so no G&T tendencies!) and they were more like my DS2 who is more vocational.

I wonder if I should talk to his Tutor? We don't get an official meeting with them at all. In 'chatting' last night (DS likes me to sit on the loo seat whilst he's in the bath) he said that when he walks into his tutor group 'The guys sort of turn and all say 'Oh, hi, 'x'!''- this was in response to me sort of asking if he felt 'in' with the group. He mentions 'Oh, me and some mates went down to the PE courtyard and we...', and he doesn't seem to have an issue with going to lunch so I assume he doesn't do that alone BUT there doesn't seem to be anyone 'special' with whom he can build a 'deeper' friendship out of school- or anyone at all, really!

But I am aware that I may be overthinking this but I also feel that DS1 would feel embarrassed to admit he felt lonely or unable to make friends so wouldn't necessarily 'come out with it', even to me.

Oh, I want to make it clear I have no problem whatsoever with DS making or keeping friends who are 'less academic' than himself! I meant that maintaining those friendships (the Y3-5) ones would be hard as the boys concerned were increasingly into football which DS1 is most definitely not. His current school doesn't stream at all except in Maths though they mix up groups for science but, as yet, they do most of their 'time' with their tutor group which therefore seems the most likely source of friendship.

I don't buy into that 'they can see their other friends out of school or at break' which is what I was told when DS2 (note DS'2', not the 12 year old the OP is about) was inexplicably separated from his Y2 mates in Y3, Juniors. DS2 can make friends quite easily but not having a strong personality, those 'old' allegiances and friendships withered and died in weeks. DS1 would stand no chance of being able to hold together a friendship under those circumstances!

I think you are overthinking the whole situation, not all children want to be part of the incrowd and the fact that he hates the violent computer games that they play is fair enough. Stick with the boys from scouts, value those interests and perhaps find local clubs that he can find friendships with like minded kids. My eldest dd age 16 was just like yours and has formed very close friendships with only a select few, my next dd age 15 was a nightmare falling out with dozens of kids on the way to forming close friendships in yr9 and my ds age 9 is going to struggle as he has different interests like birdwatching and walking, bushcraft and outdoor things and isnt botherered with computer games. We still do family things at weekends and sometimes invite a friend along for a walk perhaps that would work.
Does he go on facebook as most social activities are 'advertised' on there and all they have to do is click the attending button. Yr 9 and 10 is when most strong friendships seem to be formed the ones in yr7 and 8 seem to have been a testing time for most children.

Actually, I do wonder about the Facebook thing? 2 of his classmates have 'invited' him to join but we've always taken the 'not til you're 14' tack.

I might discuss that with DH, actually. I'm on FB but I don't understand privacy settings etc, though DS1 is quite savvy.

The violent computer game thing is also a bit tricky. It does appear that we are the only parents in the western world who don't have CoD on the boy-accessible computer! Both have played ('with the blood turned off') at mates houses and I do tell both boys that many of their school-mates are lying about what they're allowed to play on (and how late, allegedly!), but I know both feel a bit 'left out'... but I won't be capitulating about that one!

I sympathise as my yr 8 DS seems very similar. He also says the boys are all into football and violent computer games which he is not. He joins in the football at lunchtimes as it seems the only way of being with people but he's not good at it so gets a bit bored when the others won't pass to him. He says he has a few 'friends' at school but won't try to arrange anything with them (I thik he is scared of rejection). It's a big school and there must be other boys like him around and hopefully one day they'll find each other! I suspect some of the footballing boys must be like him and only joining in to be part of the crowd.

I'd definitely let him join Facebook. We were also 'holding out' till DD was 14 but relented a few weeks ago and actually I think we made a mistake in not letting her join sooner (she's 13 and in Y9). It's the way they all seem to communicate now and if they're not on it they will miss out (much as I hate it).

FWIW my DD was a lot like your DS until Y9 but now she's found a small group of close friends. Facebook definitely oils the friendship wheels...

I can see similarities between your 2 and my 2. oldest (15): quite happy to be home with us, doesnt want to bring friends back or go to theirs; youngest (12) always wants to be out and about or having friends here.

I think as long as he is happy I would leave him be; with my oldest I have said 'wouldnt you like someone over?' and she says quite categorically 'I love seeing my friends at school, but I like being home having time to myself or with you and dad as well'.

I'd let him do facebook because even if he doesnt want to start being the most social person ever, it does keep them in touch with the in-jokes and stuff. just make sure you are his 'friend' on there so you can have the odd nose about and see what's being posted...

Some one is going to say it, so it might as well be me..... have you considered that your DH and DS may both be on the very high functioning end of the Autistic Spectrum (or have many more ASD traits than the average person - we all have some of these traits).

Your DS ounds a lot like my non Asperger DC (who has many traits), but not quite as affected as my Asperger DC.

There are things you can do for him socially - but you can't force it. His Scouts group may not have anyone in it who actually shares interests with your DS! What is he really keen on? Can you try and find a hobby/sport activity that he could do once a week where he might meet other kids with similar interests. Suggestions from my sons experiences, (and doing these things have given them Kudos with their class mates at school, so it was a win-win situation), Indoor rock climbing (actually a great, and "cool" sport for not very sporty kids!), Chess, Radio club (somewhere near you there will be a club where they can learn to build, operate and get licensed to transmit radio signals). Also - Duke of Edinburgh is fantastic as a social confidence builder, lots of team stuff, gets them "in" with a wider range of pupils. They can start that from 14.
And I would speak to his school, express your concerns, see what they think.

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It's interesting you say that as DS was 'under observation' aged about 18 months for autism. I am now pretty confident he isn't 'as such' BUT I would agree that there remains the possibility he is very high functioning autistic, sort of at the bit where it meets NS, iyswim! He doesn't seem to 'get' some social cues, as far as I get to observe him in action these days, and 'can't be bothered' doing the sort of stuff that 'oils the cogs' of social interaction..

I also suspect some of the 'footballing' boys aren't that keen as well, but they have maybe worked it out that if footy is 'where it's at' they join in a bit.

Scouts seems fine, tbh. Though we spent years 'persuading' DS to keep it up via either DH or I always helping out at meetings! He's now happy to go along of his own volition (DH is the local treasurer which can't but help in DS's 'experience'- not that they show any favouritism, I must add, but DS wouldn't be 'overlooked' for office for instance as his dad is one of the executive!). I think, in some ways, he enjoys Scouts more than Cubs and certainly Beavers because they were more full of boys just 'along for the ride', carrying on where they'd left off, socially, at school that day (DS was never at any of their schools), ie there for a chat, not to 'Scout'. Those boys drop by the wayside by 11, by and large. I also think it's interesting how the Explorers come across as a bit geeky but are really nice kids. I suspect DS1 will like that, too, come 14.

Thanks to every one who has inputted here. It's hugely helpful to hear suggestions and to hear of others whose DCs are similar!

Proper - just wanted to say I completely sympathise with your situation.
Ds1 is in Year 7, never had a close friend at primary although very enthusiastic about Scouts etc and seeing people in school, and a sort of proto-friendship circle which he relied on. But not a soul mate who he played for hours with or chatted with...The people he said he was friends with actually didn't share any of his interests. I waited until secondary thinking there would be a bigger pool to chose from.

At half term and 7 weeks of new school with no real improvement I had had enough - I knew that he wasn't going to be able to make things happen by himself, too shy and diffident to invite people over or follow up. He tried phoning a new acquaintance but they didn't call back. He was obviouslly longing to "hang out" at someone's house, or just be invited somewhere, anywhere, with some peers.

So I invited an acquaintance of his from a different school whose mum I knew - I knew they had some common interests (X factor singing in this case). And it went fine, boy stayed 5 hours had a great time, that boy invited him back to Halloween trick or treating at his mum's house last night. He loved being invited out. Ironically he kept saying he was sad to miss the "home" party given by dd - so I can see he is still quite shy and likes the familiar home stuff too, rather than being ultra independent. I keep inviting neighbour's son over too, and that keeps the social wheels oiled too, even if they aren't close, at least after 8 years acquaintance there is a sort of bond. I know from hols that what he thrives on is chatting, running around, team games, and any sort of music. What he is never going to be is cool and streetwise, or someone who makes models/does airfix.

For reasons I won't go into I don't think I did enough social engineering earlier, I just decided that was Ds's character to be a bit shy like me. But everyone needs friends and company and I'm now trying to remedy it by being a bit more proactive. I don't think big parties or sleepovers really help, I think it has to one or two friends so that they get used to spending a bit of time "hanging out" rather than being busy busy.

I'm not sure about Facebook. I don't see how it can help someone who already finds friendships a bit dicey to retreat into computer world, which in my son's case he is all too prone to do. I think less computers. Yes it keeps them quiet and occupied but at what price?

I don't see Facebook as 'retreating into computer world' though. I see it (for many DC) as a means of communication, much like the phone was to us. Often it's where social arrangements are made and if they don't see they'll potentially miss out. It's where a lot of social interaction takes place and if they struggle a bit with that it can be a good place to learn 'the rules' of communication within their peer group. It's great to have friends from outside school, but school is where they spend the majority of their time during term-time.
As I said, I hate Facebook but it's big part of teen life whether I like it or not.

I agree that Facebook is a means of communication, and a natural one to that generation - and I can absolutely see that for DC who are "on the margins" of friendship groups it is ideal - it means that they get to know what's going on and can invite themselves along without having to "push in" to a RL conversation.

It's also easier to interfere help them interpret nuances, without any of their friends realising that they need help - in a way that you can't do with face to face communications.

DS is not there yet, but I can easily see us encouraging him to be on FB once a working majority of his peer group are (whilst restraining DD, who is a natural social butterfly, for as long as we can )

Proper, I was worried about mentioning ASD, I see it everywhere! IME (DS3 who has Asperger, DS1 and several extended family members who are not spectrum as such but very clearly have lots of traits), it does tend to get a lot easier for them socially from about 14 onwards - I think because they are no longer pushed together with people they really have nothing in common with, except age. At school, they get to chose subjects, begin to spend more time with kids with the same interests, even more so in the last couple of years of school and at university.

I agree with JORDANBAKER, computers AID communication, probably even more true for the socially awkward - it can keep them informed and involved.

I agree that it aids communication in some ways, but I have now heard too many stories from parents with older children about cyber bullying amongst teens to think it solves the problems of people who are on the margins, and not that savvy.

Have you read some the comments in Teen Facebook walls? Imagine saying those things in conversation - fair enough, who cares, they are forgotten from one moment to the next, that's banter for you, but set in stone they take on a different tone.

My DS is just like this. He is 16 now and in Year 12. He has absolutely no interest in going out at the weekends, apparently the other boys are 'idiots' who are only interested in talking about and playing football. I have said that I am sure that in a school his size there must be SOMEONE he has something in common with, but no. He does have outside interests and gets on perfectly well with the people there and doesn't seem unhappy at all. I think that as they get older we have to let them get on with it and I hope that when he goes to University his social life will improve!

Swan, I know there can be problems such as you describe and I think it's important to monitor FB use, but I have changed my mind about the answer being to ban it for DD as I really think that just marginalised her further. In my view our DC need to learn how to operate in the teen world, as that is the world they inhabit. I might not like it all the time but I feel I can't and shouldn't shield DD from it.

I believe (hope?!) that we have a good enough relationship such that she would come and talk to me if there was anything on there that was worrying her and we have explained the dangers and the need to be careful about what she posts and how things can be misinterpreted.

I don't think it 'solves (all) the problems of teens who are on the margins' but I think it can help.

But I also appreciate that it's a personal decision; I am not being critical of your choice.

OK, done it (with some MN help!), DS is now officially on Facebook (along with most of Y8, it seems!).

Thanks for all the input thus far, everyone, it's been useful.

Just chucking this in as my DS fortunately got into this , no real friends at school as OP describes ,has never shown any interest in FB .
www.spearheadlrp.co.uk/ - other groups around the country .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_action_role-playing_game

Swanriver - the point is that the cyber-bullying will take place whether they are online or not - at least if they are there then it is not people talking about them without their knowledge. Clearly it needs close monitoring, more so for those to whom social stuff doesn't come easily, but it is a damn sight easier to monitor what happens on FB than it is to monitor the snide comments at the back of the bus. JordanBaker puts it neatly - it is part of the world teens live in, and parents do them no favours by trying to keep them out of that world - far better to encourage and support them in learning to live in it, IMHO.

My DS has always been like that. HOwever since he started year 7 he's had 2mates calling a lot - cos I let them play on the Wii and PS3 for hours! Socially it's good for DS - I can hear him laughing away and having a good time, and they all went trick or treating this week - the first time ever for him.
You can engineer things - we took them all to the pictures the other weekend - he had to organise what day and what they were seeing and DH booked the tickets and dropped them off. Similarly with trick or treat - I made him find out what time and then they all met at ours because DS is a wuss and always prefers to be at home!!

I do sympathise, and think that my own ds (who is 10 and in yr 6) may have similar problems himself. He has always struggled to find friends, and this is partly becuase he isn't interested in the things the "cool" kids are into such as football, computer games, pokemon etc. He prefers cricket, lifeboats and Playmobil! He has made about three fairly good friends at primary school, but not sure how he will get on at secondary.

I have to say that I was very similar myself, but what saved me from social isolation was that I got into playing the clarinet, and at the age of 13 joined local youth orchestras. There I finally met some people who had similar interests to me, and my social life as a teenager revolved around my orchestra friends.

If your ds can find some hobbies/interests where he can meet like-minded people, he may well develop a social life but not necessarily at school.