IB; am I right to worry?

[chmum]

With 12 A* GCSEs under her belt and no firm ideas about wether to focus on arts or sciences next, my dd was encouraged last year to take the IB diploma rather than A levels. Our local 6th form college had only been running the course for a year when she joined, and they really sold it to us, emphasising that top Universities really value it. Unfortunately, when the first IB cohort sat their exams last summer nearly all of them failed to get the scores required for their first choice and insurance places; reacting to this, the college immediately dropped the IB going forward, and now say that it has proved to be 'far harder' than A levels and that many Universities have an inconsistent approach to admitting IB students.

Despite not offering the IB to new students, dd's college have encouraged all her cohort to continue with the course. She is very happy to do so, as she is really loving the IB and is optimistic that she will get good scores (although she has decided against applying to Cambridge because her college believe that the 40-42 IB points demanded there is 'almost impossible' for anyone to achieve!).

But as a parent, I remain seriously concerned! Are we being given fair and impartial advice by dd's college? What if her cohort, like last year's students, also underachieve against their predicted scores? We have now been told that because the college have dropped the IB, the students will have no chance to re-take any subjects next year!

Am I being silly to worry so much? What would anyone else advise in this situation?

There is a good article in the daily telegraph online today which talk about the IB versus A levels.
Kings College School Wimbledon has an average IB score of just under 40 points, so its certainly not almost impossible to obtain. Their website gives the IB score obtained for each Uni place, that makes for interesting reading.
I don't know what I'd do, I think she has to stay with the IB, if she is working hard and has the right materials she may suprise you.
Also, remember last year was the hardest for Uni entry ever, and lots of good A level students didn't get places. Its a whole new world this year.

I was in the second year group to take the IB in the early eighties at a public school that now offers only the IB in the sixth form. 3 of us took it that year and we followed A level classes for the Higher Levels, which seriously let me down for 1 of my Higher Levels as the school didn't recognise that the syllabus was considerably different until a few months before the exam. Having said that the universities were very sympathetic to my situation and very happy to correspond with me about what sort of results they would ask for. I think your daughter would be in a very good position to start ringing up uni departments that she is interested in and asking their advice.

I can totally understand her rationale for doing the IB - I too was that allrounder who couldn't decide between arts and sciences. In terms of points - she won't be able to compete with the schools who are producing scores of pupils with 40+ points every year. I think enviously of those who go to my old school now who get those kind of scores. I think I got 37 senile moments mean I am having difficulty remembering now, but I guess I would have got 40 or so now looking at how I fitted in my year group - I did the Oxbridge exams trying for medicine but missed a place there by one and did medicine elsewhere.

It is always hard being the guinea pig, but if that is the only way to be able to do something you really want, then you take your chance and make the best of it I think. Good Luck to your dd, she sounds amazing!

Meant to say chmum. I had to take a Maths A level 6 months after my IB, at the request of 2 of my offer universities, to get a higher grade- to make up for the poor result I got at Higher Level. That was the one that I had been taught the wrong syllabus. Maybe your dd could ask if that would be an option - offer to do an A level in a gap year if needed?

I was wonder if your initials refer to the school and college in question

Are there any schools/colleges within commuting distance which offer IB? Do they have experience, how much? Would it be possible to transfer there?
I have known people from very good schools transfer to others during the first couple of years of IB, as it is quite a difficult transition and your daughter's college doesn't seem to be totally commited to the qualification.

It's not that the IB itself is 'harder' than A Levels, it's that universities have been tending to make offers for the IB which are relatively high compared to the offers for A Level students. There seems to be some recognition of this now so perhaps this year's offers will be more subdued. It sounds as though the college, lacking experience, over predicted grades - which would have compounded the universities' tendency to make high offers.

I would tend to sit tight, provided the college seems to be motivated still with its teaching for the Y13's. It sounds as if she's taking a gap year - or has she put in a UCAS application, just not put Cambridge? If she's applying post IB surely she'll know where she stands?

Thanks to all for these helpful replies. I guess I just need to relax and support my dd in her chosen route. Unfortunately there are no other schools in our area with more experience of offering the IB - she'd have to make a daily round trip by train of over three hours to the nearest state alternative! In terms of whether the IB is 'harder', I believe that top scores are awarded to around just 1% of candidates, compared to the 8% A*/ 23% A grades that were awarded at A level last year. (If dd's college see this as a problem, I really wish they had researched more carefully before deciding to offer the course!) Yellowstone, I do hope you're right and Universities will recognise this and start to make more comparatively realistic offers to IB students.

DD is putting in a UCAS application this year, but she has been advised to tailor her choices to Universities which seem to favour the IB. It does frustrate me that she might have had a freer choice with A levels. She's not really planning to take a gap year, although if her IB score is low she might be forced to reconsider (and maybe take A levels) - and if she does surpise her college and score the 'impossible' 40+ I hope she might think again about applying to Cambridge post-IB.

Thanks again for the helpful feedback; I'm off to check out the article in yesterday's Telegraph! (Oh and RandomMess, my user name has nothing to do with dd's college, the intitials are those of my two children).

Hi I'm interested in this topic as my daughter is starting to look at the IB. She is in year 10, just starting GCSEs. We like the look of it because of the extended essay and the idea that this might give my otherwise very quiet but very bright daughter a "hook" at interviews. Another more prosaic reason why it seems to be gaining traction (our school has offered it for 3years) is that the marking is reputedly more predictable than A level marking. This year in particular, there was some fairly wide inaccuracy in evidence in A level marking at ours and at least one other school, with children missing predicted grades and crashing and burning, only to be awarded a better grade on a re-mark, or else performing much better than expected. One head (not ours) is apparently investigating converting to whole school IB because IB marking is perceived to have higher validity.

I would be really interested to hear which universities your daughter is being told to steer clear of with IB. Oddly, this morning, I noticed a below the line CIFGuardian commenter - teacher in the private sector, suggesting that he would not advise someone to apply to Cambridge with an IB, but I don't know why - and the range of institutions on the KSW website is certainly impressive and would seem to contradict this.

Congratulations to your daughter for her stunning GCSE results. I do feel for you and her being placed in this predicament. It is incredibly unfair. I wonder whether she.would consider boarding with an academic bursary if you qualify for one - starting her IB afresh if necessary? Is there any funding to be had e.g. via the IB foundation itself, or might e.g. they be able to direct her to a source of funding, given her exceptional results and the fact that the school has made such a spectacular cock up, and their general desire for the programme to grow in reach and credibility in the UK? Just a thought - if you don't ask...

Is she registered on TheStudentRoom forums? I found them invaluable when I was doing my A Levels, especially on one subject where the teachers kept chopping and changing so the teaching was patchy. I'm pretty sure there will be an IB section. Lots of university and 16-18 students on there from all around the country so she will be able to chat to others in all sorts of school situations as well as getting the academic support.

Of course 40+ is not impossible (we had two students score the maximum of 45 points last year out of less than 200 worldwide), but it is bloody hard and a true indication of all round excellence.

Students I have taught IB to have gone on to the top Uni's in the WORLD, sorry to say Oxbridge are not top of that list.

I'm appalled at your local college advising a girl with 12 A*s against applying to Cambridge (or Oxford). They are both falling over themselves to have applications from state school pupils and well capable of taking into account the fact that doing an IB at a state college which has only had one year group and has given it up is a very different proposition from the Rolls Royce service at some of the experienced IB independent schools. It's not a guarantee she would get in but she would be given fair consideration (eg try New Hall/Murray Edwards). I just cannot believe the useless advice some schools give children who are relying on their supposed expertise.

Good luck to your daughter.

Completely agree with Dustylaw about the absurdity of the college advising a 12 A* pupil against Cambridge if that's what she wants.

I'm not sure it's especially valid to compare those achieving the top mark of 45 with the proportion of students gaining an A* at A2. The only student I've known personally to score 45 was ludicrously talented, a Slovenian who's just graduated from Oxford, an extraordinary boy.

I do hope that your DD doesn't undersell herself with 12A*'s because of poor advice; what a lottery it can be. Would your DD be completely happy if she got her current first choice? With those grades she deserves to be exactly where she wants and a year out may be worth it, many students need a break at one end of a degree or the other.

chmum,

Your child could well win a scholarship and/or bursary to a top independent school, as a day or boarding pupil, that has strength in teaching the IB. She might be able to switch immediately and mid-course, I suppose, or be asked to restart this year or the entire course afresh. Worth some phone calls! Here's a list:

www.best-schools.co.uk/league-tables/ib-schools.aspx

Your daughter will find the companionship of other talented and IB students at:

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/

The area where excelling IB students differentiate themselves and gain the extra points needed for Oxbridge is the extended essay; and this is where inexperienced IB schools often fall down badly. The extended essay can be seen as a foretaste of the kind of work your daughter would be expected to do at Cambridge and her planning should ideally already be well advanced. She'll find help in The Student Room IB forum:

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=10

I got into Oxford in 1996 with the IB, and helped my college with admissions while I was there. Oxford was perfectly knowledgeable of the IB system back then, and so were LSE, York, Bristol and Durham (most popular destinations for pupils from my school). Unless the university is very new or not very international, then I doubt they have trouble understanding the system, which has been around for at least 40 years!

40-42 is not actually that hard to score for someone who is looking to go to a top university (the average mark at my school was 38). 3 marks for Extended essay and theory of knowledge is not that hard if the school knows the system, and that leaves 39 points: 3 sevens and 3 sixes, which is challenging but certainly easier than the 3A* that Cambridge has asked some students for...

Thanks again to everyone for this advice. I think that dd's college have their own interests at heart in discouraging the IB students from applying to Oxbridge, which is why I am concerned that we are not getting impartial advice. I have heard that the one student from last year's first small cohort to have be made an offer from Oxford missed the required mark by quite some margin, and frantic negotiation by the college (and even by the local MP) failed to secure him his place.

In terms of whether it would be more difficult for dd to get the grades required for Cambridge on the IB, a typical offer for her chosen subject would be A*AA at A level, but 40-42 points at IB. Based on predictions from her GCSE performance, she would probably have been able to achieve the former but the IB seems much less predictable, especially at her college.

I don't think starting again at a private school is going to be an option, however generous the bursary; dd is strong minded and very left wing, she'd proabaly have a fit if I even suggested this!

I agree with others who have mentioned the bonus points are very important. In the extended essay if you read the criteria and do what the say it is fairly easy to score well even with poor content and I assume the same is true for TOK. From what you have said your daughter should be capable of doing well on the content, so 3 bonus points is achievable - she needs at least one A from TOK and EE.
Make sure she has and reads carefully the criteria for the EE, TOK and all her IAs. If she has a problem getting them, then there is a real problem with the school.

Your daughter can fine tune her approach to the IB by considering these materials:

store.ibo.org/index.php?cPath=23_59

Chmum
how did your daughter do?