certificate of religious practice - diocesan policy not to sign

[Denferdoodle]

Stumped.

We'd love DS to go to wonderful Jewish school nearby, which wholly embraces kids from other faiths....provided they can get a certificate of religious practice from place of worship.

No probs I thought, DS is regularly practising roman catholic, known to priest etc. BUT apparently, intro'd last year is a brand spanking new diocesan policy that prevents any clergy from signing any such certificate or giving any sort of reference. They can only give copy baptism certificates, but since I managed to keep ours in safe place all these years doesn't help a bit.

I told the admissions lady this at the school - who tells me, in a nice way admittedly, that they can't consider application without this specific signed CRP. She tells me that loads of parents have sent in signed forms - so they'll be either non-catholics or not entirely truthful.

I'd say they are automatically excluding local catholics by this - surely they can't do this. As I say...stumped.

Help please dear MN?? I've only got a week to get this sorted now.

Why do you as Catholics want to send your dc to a school that rejects central Catholic doctrine?

As a practicing Catholic surely you know that the certificate of Baptism is only valid for 6 months?

Maybe their policy is to not sign the reference form for people who are not regular enough? (3 times out of 4 per month at mass)

I wonder if you are stirring? Your op is quite unbelievable (to me ) on so many levels.

Well, the clergy are entitled to not sign anything they want to, and if it is diocesan policy I don't think you'll get round it. Is the diocesan policy only to not sign for non-Catholic schools or is it across the board?

I don't really understand why as a practising Catholic you want your son to go to a Jewish school. is it just about the results? Are there no alternative schools locally- either Catholic or non-denominational?

Quintessential- I am a practising Catholic and have NEVER heard of a baptism certificate only lasting 6 months. Nonsense. Once you are baptised, that is it. My daughter was baptised 3.5 years ago and a copy of her baptismal certificate suffices as 'proof' of her Catholicism for our local Catholic school- no need to prove regular Mass attendance etc.

Fascinating that your ds is a regular practising roman catholic yet you want him to go a Jewish school. Do you know much about the Jewish religion?

No its completely true and no stirring at all. We know catholics who have attended there previously and wholeheartedly support it. The wider school suits DS perfectly too, academically, sport, music. Its the best all round school.

The policy is just a blanket no signing anything. Even if you attended every mass going and gave your life to the church, no signing. Even if this was for a catholic school or any other faith school, no signing.

And no, they issue duplicates for those that need evidence of baptism for other reasons. Our certificate oif baptism is valid, and we've obviously moved through the sacrements since, but not needed in this case anyhow.

Completely genuine here, and so worried.

Fayr - we have had to obtain new copies with each school application for our two children.

And - we've two local catholic schools - one is our first choice but so over-subscribed the odds are against us. I've not completely discounted it but I am realistic.

The other a family member works at and tells us in no uncertain terms to keep well away.

My op really is about whether this admissions policy can be challenged. I know I'm such a small fish, but I just didn't think they could effectively exclude a local faith group in this way by the back door. I know some CofE schools say no catholics please (in a politically correct way of 'points weighting'), and that's fair enough, but this school's policy is 'all other faiths' treated equally. But no you catholic lot, obviously.

Well that's as maybe, Quintessential, but that doesn't mean that your assertion "as a practising Catholic you surely know the certificate of baptism only lasts 6months" is correct. It's not. Your diocese may have separate arrangements- I'm not sure what a new copy is supposed to prove- but perhaps they have suffered fraud in the past?

Denferdoodle, I'm not sure what you can do. Is it a state funded Jewish school or independent? If the former, have you spoken with the LEA to point out that the effect of requiring a signed certificate is indirectly discriminating against Catholics to see what they say?

I really can't get my head around why a Jewish school is interested in ensuring that the non-Jewish children who attend practise any faith (even those that are very different to Jewish teaching) rather than none at all. Presumably this policy also discriminated against all children of no faith?

Its state. I haven't been to LEA yet no, I was trying to get something from school first.

I don't think there are enough local Jewish children to fill the places, so they have always been inclusive of other faiths as long as I can remember.

If this is Catholic diocese policy, I would imagine it is because the local Catholic schools do not require any certificates of religious practice - only baptism certificates.

My initial thought was, surely a Jewish school, by its very nature, can exclude Catholics. And as Fayrazzled says they also seem to be discriminating against children of no faith. But I can understand the situation you are in. I would imagine the school's oversubscription criteria are; Jewish children, practising members of other religions, then everybody else. You may still get a place as part of everybody else if you live near enough to the school.

There does seem to be a mismatch between the perfectly reasonable Catholic diocese policy and the admissions criteria of this particular school that will effect any Catholics who might be interested in sending their DCs there. I also think you should contact the LEA as soon as possible to see if they can sort something out,

Our local C of E secondary does precisely what OP's Jewish school does, allows people of other faiths in on same points system for an Open Faith Place, but you have to get form signed by your priest, minister to show that you are a good "practising" member of that faith. Baptism form not really important (compared to entry to Catholic schools, where it is) So 20% of school is not C of E (could be Moslem, Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Sikh, Hindu). But as OP says, you need the form signed. I think OP is perfectly justified in wanting her child to go to a school where all faiths are valued, even though it is a "Jewish" school. I certainly went as a child to a C of E school where other faiths were valued, and it was an important part of mix.

I would ask the Diocese why in some dioceses it is acceptable practise to get a priest's reference and not in this one. Certainly in Diocese of Westminster, all the priests expect to sign forms certifying attendance and the fact that they "know" and "recommend" you. No doubt it is a terrible headache for them. Perhaps your diocese has a new policy because as you say the Catholic school is not so great and they want more people to go to it...

All I can think of is, a bit like when you ask your old manager who's left your organisation to write a personal reference for you, for you to get a priest to whom you are known to do a personal reference which would hopefully not run counter to your diocesan rule.

I've no problem with actual policy, must indeed be a nightmare for the clergy especially where kids are not "known" but they're still asked to sign.

I'd just like to be on even keel. I asked whether we could supply other info in support that demonstrates same, but got a straight no.

I am indeed starting to wonder whether they have this policy as these references are only asked for by non-catholic schools here. Think I'll go to LEA now.

Didn't appreciate how much this secondary transfer stuff take over my life. Blimey.

Yeah good point Maryz, nobody else seems to be having this problem.

I think the difference for the Diocese of Westminster is that there are some very heavily oversubscribed Catholic schools in the area that demand a priests reference. I have a feeling that there are a mixture of over- and undersubscribed Catholic schools in OPs area, none of which ask for these references, so there is no reason for Catholic priests to provide them.

It seems to be the other faith schools which are out of step with this. And while it might seem reasonable for a CofE school to also favour children from other Christian denominations, it does seem a bit odd for a Jewish school to favour people who practice other religions over people who who have no religion.

That's right Cecily, the catholic schools don't need a reference just baptism certificate. One is v oversubscribed and is random allocation of last few places after a few categories (siblings, music etc), other is where family member works - would likely get in but sounds like a pit.

Can't tell you logic for Jewish school accepting all faiths, but not accepting non-faiths. I've never really questioned that side. It's likely they never intended to effectively exclude Catholics, their policy was there before this diocese policy was.

I'm starting to see a dead end, won't give up just yet but slowly deflating.

I would go higher up the Catholic church's heirachy, Denferdoodle. Make it very plain that by refusing to sign this certificate, they are denying your child the chance to go to the school that will best suit his educational needs, and that you fully appreciate the problem of non-catholic parents trying to obtain these certificates to get their child into a good school, but emphasise that this does NOT apply to you, as you are practising Catholics with a long history of good church attendance etc. Maybe someone higher up the organisation could sign the certificate for you?

Or - long shot - could your priest contact a colleague from another diocese that does issue these certificates, vouch for you, and get his colleage to issue the certificate?

I hope you get this sorted out - it is such a stressful thing to have to go through.

Thanks all for very useful comments. I'm going to try all the avenues in a last push this week - school, LEA and back to ministers to see if there's a willing signor out there maybe further afield.

This process is making me a bit of a wreck, DS out happily playing football blissfully unaware. Local comp is, btw, as much of a no-go as local catholic. I've no fall back.

Quite a lot of Christian schools operate a hierarchy of a) our church b) other Christians c) heathen idolators other faiths d) godless unbelievers.

A certain part of me has the urge to profess a lifelong devotion to the Flying Spaghetti Monster because I do think it's unfair in a school I'm paying for, but I think it makes perfect sense from the school's POV.

Can you go to the diocese and get them to confirm in writing that it is not their overall policy to write references and therefore the priest's failure to do so is not his decision.

Does your church have a sunday school and could the sunday school leader check the register and confirm the number of times your child has attended since he was old enough to do so. I don't know if the catholic church has pcc's like the church of england but could the equivalent of a church warden write a reference for you in place of the priest and the priest could confirm the church warden's position?

I find this a bit odd. All of our local Jewish schools are heavily oversubscribed with applications from Jewish families. If you have a large enough Jewish community for there to be a Jewish school, and it is over-subscribed, I don't understand how in a million years you think your child would get in there, even if they had a letter from the pope.

I also think your beef is with the church rather than the school or council. And I suspect the church won't sign the form as it's for a jewish school ie the "competition". They don't want to lose a practicing catholic to judaism.

Just reread it and seen that you think this school does not give preference to Jewish children. Are you sure? The ones around here all do, and are all oversubscribed. Do you mind me asking whereabouts in the country you are?

Sorry you don't have to answer that, it just never ceases to amaze me how different things are with schools in different parts of the country!

I am in North London.