Fewer pupils studying tough subjects

[GeorgeT]

According to Telegraph fewer pupils are studying tough subjects.

I am not surprised by this. Over 7 years ago I felt that many able pupils failed to take tough subjects leaving them with fewer options post 16 and beyond. I fear this is a symptom of league tables. While a Modern Language may not be for everyone I think it should be for many. Also many pupils opt for subjects with little writing so their only essay subject is English. Hardly surprising employers complain about written skills.Is it possible that parents don't understand the impact of the choices made at 14?

I don't have a problem with MFL being an option, but I believe the option to drop it should only be taken by the very weakest students. It does a disservice to able and average students for schools to allow them to drop it.

The EBACC doesn't make MFL compulsory, and it is very telling which schools are interested in their students' reaching their full potential and those which are more interested in league tables.

My DS's university requires student to do a remedial MFL course if they don't have a GCSE.

That's nonsense school help
Which language do you choose, if Dh had learnt French it was pointless as he worked for a german.
Does everyone learn French German Italian chinese Russian just in case you might use it one day.
The only way to learn a language effectively is to be immersed in it on a daily basis or have an interest
I am half Greek and could speak to my grandmother in Greek. I have no memory of this only what friends and family told me. She died when I was 9 and only have a smattering of Greek as I have not used it since.
I cannot see the point of a language at gcse level unless you have an interest. Ds has chosen a language because he knows university require it,but now they look at gcses it could ruin his chance at getting the university of his choice

Bruffin,

The benefit of learning a foreign language is not limited to practical use. With that thinking we would never do anything other than the 3Rs.

Learning a foreign language contributes to cognitive development, creativity and divergent thinking.

Just to clarify a few things about MFL exam requirements for GCSE for anyone who's interested.

Recent changes to the specifications (imposed on MFL teachers) now mean that speaking and writing are examined by controlled assessment, rather than final examination or coursework. This involves 2 prepared tasks for speaking and 2 for writing, usually spread over Y10 and 11. For AQA, this means producing around 300 words at a time for writing and enough material to have a conversation for 4-6 minutes for speaking. However, there is no actual requirement to memorise by rote, although some choose to.

Reading and Listening are still examined by final exam at the end of Y11. Obviously no rote learning here. Many pupils find the new system much less stressful than the old oral exams and multiple tasks can be undertaken if required, then the best 4 marks are submitted.
There has been a change of weighting and Speaking and Writing are each worth 30%, whilst Reading and Listening are worth 20% each.

Thanks for the info, what.

As a parent of several children going through the system in recent years, I never saw large amounts of memorisation. I was aware that they had rehearsed parts of the oral exam, eg the family, holidays, but not with word-for-word preparation (unlike my Latin exam in 1981).

Compared to the 'old days', we just had written papers for O-grade, and a written plus tiny oral for Higher. In my Higher, I had to discuss a French novel I had read - I chose the thinnest Georges Simenon novel that was in both our French and English libraries, and read it in English.

Having Speaking and Writing strands is good progress from the 80s.

As far as pragmatism goes, I am disappointed with DS1 who got an A* in French in Year 10 - wouldn't speak a word when we were in France. DS2, OTOH, who achieved only an A in Y11, was very happy ordering food and asking directions.

MFL teachers - apart from the obvious going abroad, what are the advantages of learning a language?

Did anyone else see the rerun of The World's Strictest Parents in Holland? One of the teenagers was taken to work at a community home for people with learning difficulties. Everyone she was filmed speaking to was able to communicate in English. I was so impressed. So why is it that dutch people with learning difficulties are able to learn English? Makes the British look rather pathetic, I think.

Hang on! I am not comparing 'normal' uk youngsters with 'normal' Dutch youngsters. We are dealing here with Dutch youngsters who are so handicapped mentally that they have to live in sheltered housing. Are you saying UK youngsters are not able to meet their standards linguistically?

I have said this over and over again you cannot compare english children learning a foreign language and foreign speakers learning english, they have a huge head start.I
n Holland they have english on the tv, the pop music is in english etc they are immersed in english from a young age. Also I suspect you are also talking about just oral english, not written english
We have been to holiday in Holland quite a few times when my children were very young and there was a lot of english television. One of the top dutch pop groups aimed at children was called Chipz and all their songs were in english.

mumslife - our dc do sound very similar!

I see. So having a mental handicap in Holland gives you a headstart in language learning over the non mentally handicapped in the UK?

Don't be ridiculous - you are not comparing like with like!

The fact that foreigners can speak English very well, means that there are few cognitive reasons that are a barrier to learning a foreign language.

It comes down to motivation and opportunity.

I dare say a lot of these overseas youngsters struggled with English, but they persevered. Not only do they speak English, but probably at least one other European language (without the exposure to lots of pop music and movies).

Firstly- are they just learning spoken english, then how many hours a week are they devoting to learning english and how are they taught english?
If my DS was to spend a few months in germany his spoken german would be excellent, but he doesn't he just gets a few hours a week, with no other exposure to german. Speaking another language is of no interest to him, he wants to work in medicine or maybe law and he would make an excellent engineer, so speaking german is very low in his priorities.

'I dare say a lot of these overseas youngsters struggled with English'
I'm sure that they did. The reason that they struggled on was becauSe no one said, 'you poor dear this is too difficult for you'. As is so often the case with some UK parents who seem to believe that their children are uniquely unable to master an MFL.

Top universities don't see it that way, Bruffin.

My DS is studying Engineering at a RG university, and it is now an entrance requirement for them to have a GCSE in a MFL. If they don't have it, they have to attend remedial classes. I would imagine that with the introduction of the EBacc, a MFL on the standard entrance requirements will be reinstated.

There is a lot to be said for studying a foreign language for cognitive development and thinking skills - something vital to lawyers, doctors and engineers. It's not about going on holiday abroad. Saying that, as an engineer myself, I spent many weeks of my career working in France. I am so glad that I studied French to a good standard. It really made a massive difference to my effectiveness and value to the company.

It is very short-sighted to drop a MFL because you don't care for it much or because you have to put the time in to learn the vocab.

MFL is seen as 'tough' is it? Really? Tough as maths or science?

Blimey! DS isn't doing it, not because he found it hard, just a bit uninteresting and because it clashed with subject he really wanted to do

It's true that it can be hard to know what language to study. But really, I think any reasonably common language is going to be useful. I did French to O level, many years ago, and I have used it a great deal since - firstly on holiday, where being able to read menus, descriptions in museums, ask for directions, etc makes travel much easier; then when my own DD turned out to be very interested in languages, I was able to communicate with French parents to help her arrange exchanges (she now has a French exchange partner whose mum writes to me in French and I write to her in English - works very well, less effort for both of us!) and thirdly at work - I'm a vet so I don't use it very much there, obviously, but there have been times when I've had to check drug information from French manufacturers or contact French vets about a patient, and having basic French has really helped. Plus all the cognitive and thinking skills stuff. It's certainly been of more use to me in daily life than trigonometry or knowing the three laws of thermodynamics is likely to be to my DD, yet studying maths (rather than just arithmetic) and science is still expected everywhere. Of course there will be some people for whom studying a MFL is a waste of time, but IMO it should be a question of asking who should be exempted from it rather than who is going to be given the rare opportunity to do it. Yes, Europeans have some advantage in that English is often heard in songs on TV, etc, but that's really not a valid reason for not learning a MFL. I think I'm right in saying more people in the world are bilingual than monolingual - it's just our perspective is skewed because the English are so reluctant to learn other languages, on the whole. It's a real shame.

Mindthegapp - DH is an engineer - he is dyslexic and wasn't allowed to do a foreign language. He became an engineer through a proper apprenticeship system, and is now a professional status electronics engineer. He has spends weeks a year working abroad including France, Germany(probably adds up to years) Italy, USA and Spain has never had a problem with not learning a language at school.
Most engineers have very high cognitive ability in the first place, cannot really see what an MFL will add to that.
DS also has an SLD he is struggling to get a C in German. He is targeted A*/A in every subject but the german will pull his overall results down. He knows that he needs an MFL for Russell Group which is why he has taken german. His science teacher says he has the type of brain that Oxbridge look for ie he is an abstract thinker. It is ridiculous that they are even looking at gcse's in the first place but that is a different thread.

Sorry I don't get the cognitive and thinking skills, the people I know who were good at languages at school, were often not very bright in other areas, ie my BF was excellent at french and german regularly getting 100% in tests, but was not top set in any other subjects and only CSE level in some.
If you look at dyslexia etc written language has very little to do with intelligence in the first place. People like my DH and DS have very high cognitive ability, they just have problems with writing their thoughts down on paper.
Alice, i am not saying that you shouldn't learn a language if you have an interest in it, but there is no real reason for it to be compulsary at gcse level, it indicates nothing about your intellectual ability at all.

Dyslexia is not a good reason for dropping a foreign language.

I just typed a great long response, and my internet connection went down and I lost it all. In summary - sorry, I just don't think you can say that language ability says nothing about your intellectual ability. Language ability is one aspect of intellectual ability, just like ability to master abstract mathematical concepts or music or anything else. Of course some people will find it easier than others and some people will have successful lives speaking just their mother tongue, but that doesn't mean that most people wouldn't benefit from some basic skills in a second language. Dyslexia will presumably make it harder for someone to write things down in any language, but I don't see why it would make it more difficult for someone to learn a second language, since they could learn the first one. But I am not very well informed about dyslexia.

I do think most people with a second language are probably far better orally than written, but unfortunately gcse is not just conversation.
I got home tonight to find DS's report had arrived.
It appears that his problems are two fold, trying to memorise his written and spoken assessments and secondly he is trying to over complicate his use of language. He is currently a D but forecast a c. Everything else is on target for an A/A* even english.

She needs strategies for coping with her dyslexia. This does not mean avoiding subjects.