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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

4 A2s

45 replies

Alwaysconfused · 03/09/2011 16:12

My son is going into year 13. He took physics, maths, further maths and art at AS with a view to giving up art at the end of year 12. The new headmaster at his school has said he MUST do 4 A levels as he considers maths and further maths as one subject!! My son has checked with all the admissions depts of the universities he is considering applying to (including Imperial) - he has been advised by all of them that 3 A levels are all that they require and further maths definitely will count as one separate subject. We have had meetings with school and the head is definitely not going to change his mind. Does anyone know if this is allowed or is there any way we can stop this now. There is so much coursework involved in art - had my son known that he would have to take a 4th subject at A2 he would have chosen a different subject. There are only 3 taking further maths at A2.

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 03/09/2011 21:00

If this is all in the Head's mind and not written down anywhere, how can they force him to take art? I mean, what would they do if he didn't turn up to lessons and didn't do coursework? They wouldn't want to enter him to fail because it would mess up their ALPS score.

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 03/09/2011 21:16

It is a strict school, which on the whole I approve of. He has been very happy there and gets on well with his teachers. The new Head has come in full of new ideas, many of them good ones, and I know my son likes and respects him. He doesn't want to upset anyone,

I think if he didn't turn up to lessons (which he wouldn't feel happy doing), I would be called into school and he would be in trouble. Really, a no win situation!

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Talker2010 · 03/09/2011 21:45

When you say that you have had meetings with school ... have you actually met the head and asked for his reasoning ... taking with you evidence that you have gathered to show he is wrong?

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 03/09/2011 22:03

We had a meeting with my son's vertical tutor, who is also his maths teacher and his art teacher towards the end of last term. The art teacher is also new this year. The AT is in a position that there are only 3 or 4 who want to continue on with A2 - it is billed as "fine art" - it is anything but. His maths teacher is very understanding (as is head of VI form), but both have made it obvious that nothing can be done. My son is going to arrange a meeting himself to discuss his feelings with the Head as soon as he returns to school. I feel it will not go the way he wants.

OP posts:

happilyconfused · 04/09/2011 12:45

Lawrie - we count EPQ and Critical Thinking as enrichment as well. For us to receive funding for a student they need to be doing at least three subjects at AS or A2 - we have six lessons per week per subject. Critical thinking, EPQ and FM only get two lessons per week so we are not funded for them.

webwiz · 04/09/2011 12:58

This seems to be a rather odd and ill informed decision by the school. Maths and Further Maths are two distinct A levels but some courses such medicine don't want both as it reduces the breadth of study. For a mathematically based course it is a distinct advantage to have studied further maths as it gives the opportunity to do more of the mechanics based modules.

The main problem for your DS though is that Art is such a time consuming subject. It may affect his performance in his other exams and he is making like unnnecessarily difficult for himself.

LawrieMarlow · 04/09/2011 13:01

happilyconfused how long are your lessons? Am interested in how things have changed since I was at school (am worried it sounds like I am over questioning but it is a genuine interest ).

When I did my A Levels each lesson was 1 hour 10 min with 20 lessons in a week. I did 4 FM lessons a week, 5 Maths, 5 Physics and 4 Chemistry in year 12 and then 4 FM lessons, 4 Maths, 4 Physics and 5 Chemistry i Year 13 I think. Left me with not a lot of free periods anyway.

I can see that if only 2 periods are given to FM as opposed to 6 for other A Levels that it is being treated differently but I couldn't have managed with that few lessons I don't think.

senua · 04/09/2011 16:55

I can't believe that the Headmaster has thought this through properly. He might be able to force the OP's DS into doing an extra subject because the HT doesn't believe that Further Maths is a full, other A2 but what does he think that the next generation will make of this? He will have a mass migration of Mathematicians and Physicists to more supportive sixth forms. And, once the star pupils have gone and the world realises that he does not rate FM, he will then have trouble retaining and recruiting good Maths teachers.

thekidsmom · 04/09/2011 16:55

The situation is the same at my DS's school. If the boys take Maths and further Maths, they have to do 4 A2s - its school policy, not the uni entrance requirements.

And as for the timetabling, they did 8 periods per subjects - so he had 16 maths lessons per week. Given the separate requirements for all the modules - M1 to 4, C1 to 4, DS, S1 and 2 (and more I cant even remember) - I dont think they could really cover it in less too easily?

I cant remember there being any exceptions BUT I'd still go back to them and ask them to consider maybe another AS instead - perhaps something that fits in with the timetalbe? Although tbh, carrying on the Art A2 would be no more time commitment than a new AS....

IShallWearMidnight · 04/09/2011 17:10

DD1 was advised that doing Maths, FM and Physics to A2 and gettign as good grades as possible was much preferable to doing 4 A2s and risking not getting the A*/A s she'd need (admittedly to study Maths). Matsh and Further Maths is definitely two full subjects worth of study these days as you need a certain number fo modules for each of Maths and FM. I think back in the olden days, FM was much more of an add-on, but certainly not now.

Not sure how you go about explaining to a head teacher who won't listen though .

webwiz · 04/09/2011 17:19

Further Maths A Level must be the only subject that has so many completely different approaches by different schools!

DD2 has just completed her A levels (Maths, Further Maths and Chemistry) and all three had the same teaching time with no requirement to do a fourth subject to A2. Even the most competitive course still only require 3 A2's as the introduction of the A* is making offers tougher.

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 04/09/2011 17:31

Thank you everybody for your input - it has been really interesting and obviously this subject is quite a grey area!

I would just say that having spoken to various universities (and asking them if 4 A levels would give applicants more chance of getting in), they all advised that the 3 stated in their entry requirements are what they are looking for plus information supplied on the PS and possibly an interview.

If the news is to believed GB is in need of engineers - surely school should be welcoming a boy who wants to do science/maths rather than trying to change his chosen career path with its totally inflexible attitude!?

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Silverstreet · 04/09/2011 17:41

Could there be another agenda here? Is the new head trying to ensure that there are enough students doing art to to justify this A2 remaining? Ie his stated reason of maths and further maths not being counted as 2 A levels might not actually be why he is insisting DS keeps doing art.

sieglinde · 04/09/2011 17:45

The FE College where DS is beginning encouraged him to try 4 ASs; he is doing Maths, Further Maths and Physics - but he already has an AS in French, so that will make 4, and he is doing 2 pre-Us with private tutors (Latin and Greek). It's hard to be sure whether we're right to let him drop Chemistry, but he is unwilling to drop all his languages... I wouldn't urge any dcs into engineering, though - the pay is in decline.

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 04/09/2011 18:14

Silverstreet - I have wondered that myself. If my son does give up art I believe there will only be 2 going onto A2, which is barely worth keeping the art course going I would have thought.

Sieglinde - he has been interested in engineering since he was small - he has done work experience with two motor manufacturers and also a residential engineering based taster (4 days) during the summer. He is absolutely passionate about it. I think job satisfaction is very important as well as big pay.

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noblegiraffe · 04/09/2011 19:28

If you don't think the head is acting in the best interests of your child, but rather the school and funding, and you have the university information to back you up, could you contact the governors?

I don't know if the governors have powers over the sixth form, but it's worth a shot.

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 04/09/2011 19:53

I have been thinking that as well - big decision to make though. I don't want to do anything to make his last year at school difficult. He has been happy there and I also think that the BofG will probably support the Head as much as possible - however, once he returns to school on Wed then that may be the choice we have to make.

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Talker2010 · 04/09/2011 20:14

The funding will not be affected if the OPs son does 3 qualifications ... that is deemed full time Y13 so that is not a reason for the school to insist

Perhaps the Head comes from a school where FM is only an extra ... where the teaching is not full time ... perhaps where it is only an AS ... lots of school have any or all of these characteristics

This is why I asked earlier if you had actually put your case to the head ... if your son is going back on Wed then the staff will be in Mon and Tues ... call and ask for a meeting before Wednesday

Original poster

Alwaysconfused · 04/09/2011 20:35

Son has apparently just e-mailed Head to ask for a meeting between the two of them to discuss the issue.

I actually work at a FE college and return to work tomorrow so trying to arrange a meeting over the next 2 days will be difficult. However, depending on what happens when/if son has this meeting, I will make a point of seeing Head.

Although teenage sons don't like taking advice from their parents I will point out to him that he should make a case of the fact that when he chose his VIth form options there was no mention of this.

OP posts:

sieglinde · 05/09/2011 10:42

Agree COMPLETELY if your ds is passionate about engineering, AC!

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