London Oratory or Cardinal Vaughan

[universalis]

Our son loves his faith, good at sports, fairly musical and reasonably academic no behaviour probs, which do you think would suit him? Obviously we know its hard to get a place so how do bishop challoner or bishop thomas grant seem as back ups, anyone know?

Both are very good schools with great music, drama, arts and academic curriculum. Oratory Ebacc score is particularly impressive (68% v 33% from memory)- which suggests it seems to be better at languages than Vaughan -and strong at rugby and sports generally (rowing, swimming, cricket etc) with many competitive teams. Both do very well in getting students into Sutton Trust 30 universities inc Oxbridge.
Some uncertainty hanging over the Vaughan, its future direction and ongoing ethos - new head due to be appointed in Autumn in context of ongoing dispute between parent governors and diocese over control of the governing body. Pretty messy.
Vaughan is somewhat smaller and seems to have more space - both have mixed sixth forms.
Difference too in nature of Catholicism - Oratory is a Catholicism of the senses and soul (influenced by the smells, bells, music, spirituality of the Brompton Oratory Fathers and their found St Philip Neri) whereas Vaughan seems to be more focused on Catholic rubrics such as daily recitation of the Angelus.
That said, both currently excellent schools - you can't go too wrong with either.

thanks deadbeatdad im confused as to nature of catholicism reference are you suggesting the oratory is more genuine with its faith or less attention to detail? what is ebacc? do you think the vaughan my become watered down a little with the new head? thanks so much for your help

No, not more genuine and certainly not less attention to detail (far from it) but my sense is that there was a difference on display at the open evenings I've been to.

Ebacc (English bac) is the government's new measure of academic performance at GCSE level for schools.

The appointment of the new head at Vaughan is important - my guess would be as good as your as to what the governing body are looking for in that appointment. Certainly something to watch.

Good news is that you can list them 1 and 2 depending on your preferences, and if you don't get one you might get the other depending on how you meet the criteria (compared to the hundreds of others applying)

yes I think they will go first and second and likely as not we'll get third or fourth, thanks for taking the time to reply. we would like a school where the faith is real and evident in how those in the school treat one another we will be applying in october and until recently had no idea how many apply for these schools so we understand competition is fierce, have you any ideas of other faith filled schools mixed or boys in central or south London?
Someone told me the vaughan had lost its right to admit without a catchement due to diocesan intervention however the admission criteria doesn't seem to reflect this on the website. I feel I should have been researching last year but will have to have a look in the new term, can you tell what a school is really like from an open evening?

If you don't think you will get in to either Oratory or Vaughan by dint of the criteria don't put them 1 or 2 - proximity is not the issue with these schools but catholicity and (currently) winning a ballot is.
I think your friend maybe wrong (that was the case last year) but you should check and remember it may change as Catholic GBs have to review their criteria each year.
The Oratory is now an academy so has a little more freedom over admissions at least until the new admissions code comes into effect.

If you don't think you will meet the criteria don't put them 1 and 2 as by the time you get to your 3rd choice catholic school it may be that the places there are gone. The local authorities publish info on how the criteria were met in previous years.

I think the open evenings can tell you quite a bit though of course not everything

You sound relly knowledgable I feel really nervous I thought we had six choices, I don't think we would have a problem with the criteria at any catholic school but there must be far more applicants that fit the criteria than places if as many apply as i've heard do. Surely fitting the criteria applies to all practising catholics or am I missing something?

And Nick Clegg's boys go there.Don't let that put you off!

Some fit the criteria more than others particularly where a points system might operate. If you think you will get the maximum points or hit all the criteria and subcriteria - read the footnotes - then subject to how random allocation works you will have a good chance. But unfortunately there are no gurantees.

Where are you Universalis? I know boys at this school and might be able to tell you if you have a chance based on how boys in our primary school have done in recent years its become much harder

Hi guys - I have the very same dilemma and would really appreciate any help/knowledge from those of you with experience of either school. We have been offered Oratory for DS - it was our 2nd choice, mainly because of the journey. CV was 1st choice! Our decision of where to place the choices was based entirely on ease of journey - loved both the schools equally. We are currently appealing for CV but not sure whether we are doing the right thing. I appreciate we are in a v fortunate position but am struggling to decide between the two. Obviously if we lose appeal - the decision is easy and has been made for us. This year CV intake was done by random allocation whereas Oratory selected - would this suggest Oratory may be the better bet? Would really appreciate any advice

Hi busymummy, both schools are excellent and its rare to have the choice you may be given. TBH I don't quite understand why its such a dilemma for you. You prefer one based on travel, so if you get offered that one after appeal then why wouldn't you just accept it. Sounds like you're worrying where you don't really need to.

Hi notagermother - thanks. Yes I see your point and you are right, my main reason for my choices was travel then I should just stick with the same reasoning....I realise how ridiculous I sound and I fully appreciate the fortunate position we are in - I guess I just want to pick the right one and to not have regrets! I first went to see CV a few years ago and totally loved it but there has been a few changes since then particularly with regards to the admission policy. The new Head is v impressive though and with such good leadership the school cant fail. Will see how appeal goes and take it from there

How did you find appeal at CV busymummy.I attended last week and cant wait to hear from them .As regards of appeal? It was very calm and for some reason I find it very odd that panel dont ask as many questions as I thought .Q were not what I have expected or perhaps they just clear that no appeals will be upheld.Love to hear your experience.

Isky

Hi Isky - yes I'm nervously awaiting the letter - hoping we won't have to wait until Friday like they suggested! A staggering 69 appeals (at the beginning of the process it was 77)! Lots of letters to write but to be honest we all just want to hear whether its a niegh or a yay - not the reasons why/why not! I felt it went ok but so has everyone else I have spoken to. The panel and the Head were v nice but I do sympathize with the schools position - they are full. I wasn't in there v long - 15 mins tops. The poor Head is there for the entire week - he must be fed up of us and our tears lol! You are right, the panel do not ask many questions and the questions are similar for each candidate. To be honest, I think they are going through the motions. The school is full - end of so my guess is they will only uphold the case/cases that are clear cut. I think last year, there were 3 upheld out of 95+ appeals - so that's roughly a 1 in 30 chance! Here's hoping Mr Postman delivers the goods tomorrow and put us all out of our misery. I hope your outcome is a positive one - you never know as they say - gotta be in it to win it! Good luck

Good luck, I will post an update as soon as we get letter.

Isky

Nothing in the post today. This is torture!

No post here either, maybe tomorrow or day after...

Fingers crossed,

Isky

Hi Isky and Busymumm23, wishing u the best of luck. A friend of mine is also waiting for the results of their appeal for CV - it's so nail biting. Just out of interest, bearing in mind their allocation is now random, does it leave many avenues outside of social ones, in which to appeal on?

Hi DiaryofaSingleMum and thank you for your good wishes! You are absolutely right - random allocation leaves few avenues for appeal. In our case, we are arguing that our application has not been categorized correctly in accordance with the admission policy. Still don't think we will win - have convinced myself it's a no - self protection and that way we can't be left too disappointed when its not upheld. I hope the wait is over soon - keeping my fingers crossed the letter arrives tomorrow. Hope your friend is bearing up under the pressure.......I feel her pain!

Hi busymum, thanks for your response. I think they went along the avenue too of the category prejudicing his application, so to speak. They are not too hopeful either. The sad thing is in their case, their lovely son it still living in hope, which just pulls at my heart strings. Like you I think (and I can't believe I'm saying this because I'm all for positive thinking), but to think the worse, get excited about the allocated school then pop the champagne if it comes through. I'll say a little prayer for you too. Nonetheless, you know life, it always just works out for the best doesn't it? And often we don't know what we're being protected from:)

DiaryofaSngleMum - absolutely! Expect nothing and anything we get is a Brucey bonus lol! V upsetting that your friend's son desperately wants it - the situation is much worse when the child is so upset. My DS on the other hand, appears oblivious to it all, hasn't even asked if the result has arrived. If it is a no, admittedly I will be disappointed but I'm in a lucky position as we have been allocated another excellent school (even if it is the other side of London and involoves a horrendous journey). What will be, will be and I'm sure the man above has a plan for us.......as you say we never know what he is protecting us from. Will keep you posted x

If it is any consolation, it can't be anything like the journey that some mumsnetters expect their children to do. There are only a couple of miles between the 2 schools and the Oratory is near both the tube and national rail, and on or near several bus routes.

@busymum23, oh how wonderful that your son is oblivious to it all! And he hasn't even asked for the result! That is amazing. Gosh I wish my son was like that. Like you, even if my son was disappointed, I would have made him forgot about it by now, especially if the other school was still a good one. Funny actually, another friend of mine, was offered her second choice; was incredibly disappointed, but then they both got quite used to the idea of it, by looking through the webiste again and getting excited about the building and all that. The first school then called her up around three'ish weeks later to offer her a place (which I thought was quite odd because she hadn't appealed or anything). However, by that time, they had got excited about the second school and turned the first one down! How funny is that. Must admit, like you, I too would be disappointed; but then welcome to my world, LOL:)

@CecilyP: I'm afraid, I'm one of those Mummies who has a son who'll be doing a trek to get to school in sept. But it's a price we were prepared to pay for improving the odds of doing well:). My journey to school as a child was quite a mammoth one too. I had to take two buses which was unheard of in those days. Admittedly, it wasn't great, but you just got used to it. Now I'm older, I'm quite pleased that my Mum did that as it was definitely for the best in my case. I guess it's back to that horses for courses situation:)

DiaryofASinlgeMum - still no letter! If it doesn't come tomorrow I think I will combust! Have got one child doing GCSE's this week, another doing SATS - so add that to being totally and utterly consumed with the result of the appeal - is pushing me over the edge. A large glass of Prosecco for me tonight!!! Has your friend heard anything yet?

CecilyP - you are absolutely right - the schools are only a few miles apart but because of train lines near us, DS journey is doubled for the Oratory. No direct route - so changes etc. Fantastic school though so a sacrifice we will be happy to make. DS is now v excited about the rugby at the Oratory so the journey is becoming less of an issue for him - lets hope he is still as enthusiastic in his teenage years! If all else fails we will have to sell up and move to fulham - sacrifice our house for a flat the size of a cupboard lol!

Isky - has your postman delivered the goods?

Hi busymummy,
No signs of the postman yet. I hope he will find the way by tomorrow..