Do uniforms really reflect school standards?

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1 or 2 recent threads elluded to the claim you can tell good schools from bad simply by the standard of their uniform. So a school that insisted (successfully) on a traditional uniform like blazers, ties, pleated skirts, tucked in shirts etc. were generally better than a school of kids dressed like ragamuffins. Though in some ways a sloppy uniform is worse than no uniform but tidy jeans, T shirt etc. so depends how you definie smart.

Certainly in Glasgow all the private schools have this kind of smart uniform and the top non private (not council run either but hey) also does (and though not private they have huge waiting lists so can probably enforce it easily). Poorer schools tend to have very scruffy kids miandering about its grounds and outside. (anyone playing the poverty card, there are clothing grants for such families)

There are exceptions to every rule so please don't tell me that. In general though.

My DD's secondary has the strictest uniform code of all the secondary schools in our town. It also has the best results. Even for SEN pupils. Coincidence?

They get put in isolation for a first offence, sent home for the day for a second offence, and suspended for a third offence. The rules state length of skirt, no 'unnatural' hair colours, no cut patterns in hair, blazer, shirt and tie to be worn Sept-April, black polo shirt with embroidered logo April-July.

It instills a sense of following rules, and if dc follow this rule, then they are more likely to follow other rules. If you don't like it, you can send your dc to the next nearest secondary, with a (very loose) policy of polo shirts and sweatshirts, and pelmets for skirts, where the GCSE results are literally HALF the results at my DD's school. And the SEN results are even worse.

Talkin, yes, re 'T in CF' school, I absolutely don't get how they get the highest GCSE results in the county for a comp. The uniform is casual, the school during a school day is a bit of a mad house (in an OK way, I should add, not scary!), the approach to homework is haphazard....

2 things though:
HSC has the purplest uniform, at least in KS1 and 2, known to man; and sorry but RS in Romsey really isn't a particularly good school! 90% of DS1's R-Y5 primary classmates are there and it seems rather rudderless and prone to changing direction at a whim. My mum friends there are not very happy. MB is a better choice!

And lala- the 'uniform thing' isn't a myth. Just because you can cite 2 examples containing a sample group of two doesn't make it so.

I would say a uniform makes no difference, but others will disagree.

I had to wear a very traditional uniform my younger sibs didn't. We've all got grown up DC now, and done reasonably well.

I've had 6 DC. The eldest 3 never had a school uniform. The youngest 3 all have from 1st day at primary. All went/go to the same schools. There is no difference in attitude, behaviour or results so far.

Uniforms are cheaper and 'easier'.

Strict uniform policy doesn't have to mean expensive. DS1 (and soon to be DS2's) school is very tough on uniform (children get sent home to change) but the uniform itself is very cheap. The school sells the logo'd items itself at cost so that the prices are kept down.

I wasn't citing two examples - I was using those as examples to make a wider point that some schools think that uniform is a be-all and end-all and will magically transform behaviour and standards. It doesn't. If the school has problems, trying to insist on a strict uniform policy as some sort of PR policy rather than tackling the way the school runs is a pretty fruitless exercise. The OP asked if a school that insists on a strict uniform policy is intrinsically better than a school that doesn't - complete myth but a very common one having read some of these posts.

I'm a fan of uniform, by the way, I think it makes it much easier to get my children through the door each morning but I couldn't really care less what length skirts they wear/if the jumpers are knitted or sweatshirts and I think small children wearing ties and blazers look ludicrous. In the case of schools that insist on a very specific uniform available only through their expensive suppliers, I think that is downright discriminatory.

Should have said, I wasn't citing two examples from a sample group of two...

I tend to associate an obsession with uniform - sticking 11yos in shirts, ties and blazers - with a school desperate to stay out of special measures.

It's one of those things heads bring in to try and turn around crap schools. And it doesn't always work.

DS's ofsted Outstanding, high achieving (though in a notorious inner-city borough), highly popular and over-subscribed state primary with excellent discipline has no uniform at all.

lolo usualsuspect at the 6th form "business wear" thing.

Because of course the mark of a successful business person is their machine washable, Burtons suit

It is weird. It rather suggests that whoever brought it in has no idea what goes on in the world of work outside of teaching. What's it for exactly?

I don't believe that uniform makes any difference at all.

maypole- you are being slightly disingenuous here- the 5 outstanding schools in your authority that you mentioned also happen to be highly selective! (< than 1 in 20 applicants get in)

Not all the other schools opt for a mishmash- the 2nd lowest performing has re-opened as an academy this academic year, and introduced ties, blazers, even a uniform bag... we are yet to see whether or not this affects their GCSE results this summer.

The 4 schools closest to me have very strict uniform policies (though 2 do not have blazers, the other 2 do) and their results are craaaaap.

It's not a new idea though. I remember hearing someone say 20 years ago 'the worse the uniform the better the school'
They meant worse as in calf length skirts or hats in horrible colours.

My school was strict on uniform and it was nowhere near special measures...see pulling random examples does not prove anything.

You're right Nasal, it doesn't prove anything. Other maybe that uniforms don't reflect school standards.

I am following this with interest as DD will be leaving a very high acheiving, outstanding primary school today. While the uniform isn't compulsory all the children do wear it.

Her next school is changing its uniform policy, and from September the uniform is very strict indeed. The school has appeared in the local paper nearly every week because parents have been complaining. I reserve judgement on this because I don't think it is important enough to worry about. The head teacher is intent on raising the school's standards - starting off with the uniform. They are also focussing on raising academic standards and discipline and do their best to stamp out bullying.

I can't really see what all the fuss is about as all the pupils have been given their new blazers. We can buy shirts, skirts and trousers from anywhere, but have to buy the tie and PE shirts from the school - not exactly expensive stuff.

I guess an important fact here is that for the DCs the most immediate, tangible evidence of a new, no prisoners discipline policy is the visuals of a new, smart uniform.

I know though we outwardly complained like crazy, we were rather proud of our uniform! Admittedly- and this is important for the sake of the 'argument'- we were the girls grammar school thus our uniform, rather like a posh private school's uniform, denoted something i.e we were the 'clever' ones.

And interestingly, don't you think there are 2 extremes being paraded here: the failing sink estate goes 'Academy' and rolls out a smart new uniform, and the long-high achieving school just happens to have a strict, usually smart uniform (and just about every private school in the land has a uniform, some of it bordering on 1950s chic... Eat yer heart out, Billy Bunter!).

When I was at (private gels) school, state schools tended not to have uniforms.
Fashion parade one upmanship nightmare.
That is why they were brought in.
At DS school, the bullying among the girls over the "right" coat (over their uniform) is just poisonous.
DDs school has non uniform till the end of term.
Personally I'd ban Hollister, Jack Wills and A&F as it just SCREAMS "my parents were mad enough to pay for this" - and highlights those whose parents can't.

Uniforms are good - if the management of the school make them a force for good and not just a method to snipe.

Erebus may and Cory will know that my catchment school gave the kids their uniform for free in the first year it became an Academy - caused huge problems because it was not "valued"

Nah, Talkin- gizza clue! I believe your DC is/are in MB? (good choice) but I don't know where you're catchmented (Oak.../ Qu?). And I am nosy beyond belief! So if you post in, say, 'Gardening' about your yew hedge, I'll be there, asking about yer catchmented school! Really!

I like the MB uniform (except perhaps I wish the blazer and trousers/skirt were in exactly the same colour instead of very dark navy and black!)... but- did I mention this earlier on this thread? DS2 went to his Y5 swim gala at K's in Winch and boy, did the Y7's queueing up to use the pool after them look SHARP!

Catchment
www.thisishampshire.net/news/9081638.More_than_12_jobs_to_go_as_axe_hits_school_again/

hence why yes, MB was the only option - some day the girls will wear their skits longer than their blazers - probably
Kings - yes they use their uniform as a real statement and so the kids are PROUD of it.

Argh- Oases? 'Christian Community Learning'. Wot?

I think it depends what they do with the uniform. I like one of out local secondaries. The have a polo shirt, no tie, round necked sweat shirt and generally trousers (the girls can wear skirts but most don't) there is really very little scope for personalising it.

DD at one of the top independent schools in town, but senior girls are a giant pile of scruff. I find it rather endearing, and the fact that the school works harder on getting girls into uni of their choice instead of faffing about blazers/straw boaters etc was a big plus.

It shouldn't matter but I think it does and goes much deeper than school uniform. My mum and family in general think that appearance and being well turned out - neat hair, colours co-ordinated, holding oneself well, good shoes, matching handbag is very important. Looking good and looking right for the occasion in question. I also went to a school with a strict uniform. My family weren't that hung up on education and I didn't go to university - went to finishing school and did a secretarial course but ended up being very successsful by my mid to late twenties.

On the other hand my DH's family and mother in particular don't think appearance matters and people should be judged entirely on their personalities/achievements - which in principle and according to the moral highground is probably right. But all the children went to RG universities. Neither of DH's sisters have ever had a professional job (or worked much either). They are late 40s now. One is a hippy on benefits on another continent whose partner doesn't work either because it impacts on his artistic creativity (neither of them have sold a picture in the last 20 years as far as I am aware) and the other is a hippy who went to live on different continent because she and her partner actually calculated that was the place that offered the best combination of benefits and quality of life for the least effort. Both are a pair or soap dodgers. They went to bog standard comps and were not, at school, non compliant in any way although I suspect they were always allowed to be a pair of scruffbags.

Thankfully DH broke the mould but I have to maintain his wardrobe and do most of the purchasing and co-ordinate things like ties and shirts, etc. and have to policy his shoes and what he puts together on almost every occasion.

AFAIAC - appearance matters and it ought to start at home and can be carried through to adulthood via proper and strict uniforms that instill the basics of neatness and tidyness, polished shoes and socks as dark or darker than the trousers - oh goodness I sound a 143

The best regarded state school in Oxford has no uniform. I don't think having a uniform or not tells you much, also out on the streets students will undo their ties, turn up their skirts etc, even if the uniform is strictly enforced within the school gates.