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Secondary education

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So if your 14 yr old decides he wants to study music after A levels

45 replies

Ormirian · 10/07/2011 21:31

what can he do with it?

Until recently DS was set for engineering - probably an apprenticeship. But now he's thinking of music. He is doing better in music than almost any other subject currently - even than science which is also good.

Is it a bad idea? Is he going to be unemployable:?

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exoticfruits · 11/07/2011 13:26

It is changing all the time MotherPanda-and will do even more with £9000 tuition fees.

ZZZenAgain · 11/07/2011 14:03

I don't think it is too late in terms of grades or that he left it too late to start learning an instrument. The point is probably not how long you have been doing it but how you are doing it. He may well have the level of grade exams he has not taken, as someone pointed out below. Why not for a start do some grades now and look at aiming for grade 5 theory at some stage?

If you want to be a classical solo/orchestra musician, I think yes, you need to start preparing for it quite early simply because it is hugely competitive and you are up against amazing young performers who have been well-taught and guided and come from all around the world to compete against you for the few lucrative places there are. If that is what he wants to do, I think yes, he would need to be preparing in ernest now for that route.

Your ds is playing guitar/drums/ukelele so would he be looking at classical music - classical guitar (solo performance Bach type of thing), percussion in an orchestra or more say jazz/band music?

When you say he wants to study music, what does he see himself doing in his degree/afterwards? I realise it isn't written in stone at the age of 14 but I think you prepare a bit differently to teach music in a school, to become a solo performer, band musician, a music theorist, etc).

Ormirian · 11/07/2011 14:26

Atm he is thinking in terms of teaching and being in a band. But really he just wants the chance to study all forms of music.

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elphabadefiesgravity · 11/07/2011 14:31

I have a music degree. I spent a few years working for an arts vnue. I now run classes for children alongside an office job.

A friend of mine at uni went into arts marketing and education but is now a foundation paramedic

Others are teachers or they went on to do a postgrad in an unrelated subject such as law.

ZZZenAgain · 11/07/2011 14:36

don't think he left it too late to do that.

In terms of earning regularly afterwards and having a secure financial set-up, I don't think music is at all an easy field to get established in. I am sure it is a really enjoyable degree and he will meet interesting people on his course and through life. What happens afterwards job-wise, is going to be down to luck and who you know I suppose. I have met quite a few classically trained musicians who have found it difficult, despite years of training and being very good performers, to make a living with it.

I suppose as a worrier-mum type for that reason, I might be looking fondly on that engineering course... Hard to say nowadays if what they study/train for will become their profession for even a part of their working life.

Ormirian · 11/07/2011 14:39

"I might be looking fondly on that engineering course... "

I am! That was prompted my thread. I get totally freaked out by friends' children who are unemployed after A levels and no idea where they are going. But it's got to be his decision. And being unemployed with a degree and an abiding love of and skill in music, might be better than being unemployed with no qualifications at all

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AMumInScotland · 11/07/2011 15:30

If he sticks with wanting to study music then I would let him go for it - if he gets a decent set of A levels then does a music course at university or college, it shows that he can work hard and study well, so the chances of him ending up unemployed are reduced.

Of course there's no guarantee of him getting a job doing it, at least not one that is fulltime and actually pays the bills, but if he's keen on it, then he'll be much more likely to study hard than if he goes into somehting "practical" that he doesn't really love.

DS plans to study music - we've pointed out to him that most musicians have to do something else to pay the bills, even the very talented teachers he's had - but he's still keen and will work at something else to fund it if that's what it takes. I'd much rather support him in what he loves than push him into something else, whatever the practicalities.

jenniec79 · 11/07/2011 15:35

Music and sciences together would be a great way into sound engineering either for a record label or film/tv/radio I'd have thought.

One big regret is that I dropped music after GCSE. I wanted to do the A/S (old system) but decided maths would be more useful.

Ormirian · 11/07/2011 15:54

thanks jennie - perhaps I'll suggest he looks into that when he comes back from his camping trip.

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thekidsmom · 11/07/2011 16:06

As the parent of a budding musician myself, I knwo the thoughts you're having!

But you need to be aware that he can't even do music A level unless he has a grade 5 practical in an instrument. (Its different for music Tech, I think.)

So I would work hard towards that and see where he is in a year....

circular · 11/07/2011 17:16

Music Technology A level IS different. I dont think you need to be able to perform at all. It is also NOT generally recognised for a Music degree - but is for a Music Technology degree.

One of my nephews (now in his late 20s) did a Music Tech degree. He now works as a sound technician at a Uni and is also a certified trainer on Apple software. Makes a reasonable living, never been out of work except for the first few months. He did play guitar and keyboards, but did not take any grades and never wanted to perform. Composing and the ICT and technical side always his thing.

For GCSE, performance needs to be at least Grade 3 Standard and as far as I know, is roughly equivalent to Grade 5 theory.
For A level, performance Grade 5, theory grade 8.
Was not aware you needed the actual grades (but could be wrong) just the standard. May vary between the examining boards. For GCSE, Edexcel have just made it compulsory to be able to read music, for example.

roisin · 11/07/2011 17:18

Music theory isn't that hard, if you're prepared to do a bit a couple of times a week.
ds2 (12) started working towards his at Christmas - using the Trinity workbooks.
He's almost finished grade 4 book now and is planning on sitting the grade 5 (AB) exam in November.

He already had quite a lot of the technical knowledge already, it is just a point of sitting down and learning a few technicalities and some Italian words.

mistlethrush · 11/07/2011 17:21

I did a music degree and loved it - was considering a masters - but had a year off and decided I really didn't want to teach full-time or play full-time, so applied for another profession that would allow me to sing and play what I wanted when I wanted to. The music degree was a fantastic basis - don't regret doing it at all, even though, on the face of it, it is of absolutely no use whatsoever in my chosen profession.

Amaretti · 11/07/2011 17:29

I think he needs to start on his grades and see if he still loves music after a few year's hard slog and practice, tbh. DS has just done grade 5 and needed to practice 5 times a week. If your son hasn't started this process yet then surely he's a bit untried and untested, IYSWIM?

confidence · 11/07/2011 21:35

"He hasn't got a grade in anything yet! It's still new to him but his teacher is very encouraging and reckons he is one of the most promising music students in the year. He has played guitar for about 2 years now, and drums for a little longer. He has also picked up DD's uke that she asked for for christmas a few years back, and has rarely touched, and was playing it really well straight away. This is what confuses me - until a few years back music was just something he listened to"

OK here's my honest opinion (as a musician and music teacher):

At his age, and with such little experience behind him, it's too late for any question of a career in classical music. Absolutely no chance. People just don't pick up instruments out of the blue in their mid teens and end up in professional orchestras or string quartets. Sad, but true.

The same is not true of non-classical styles of music (which let's face it, account for 95% of the music industry). People DO, all the time, take up singing or strumming a guitar in their mid teens, find they have a flair for it and, with passion and grit and determination, end up forming successful bands or producing successful records. So if it appears to be working for him, by all means encourage it, in this respect.

But here's the thing: the academic route of a university or college music degree is absolutely 100% useless for anything except a career in classical music (and university courses are pretty useless for the performing aspect of even that). If he wants to play in bands, write or produce songs, run a record label or anything else, then he needs to spend the formative years of his late teens and early twenties out there doing it - learning how things work in the real world, and above all meeting people, lot's of people. Not sitting in some university earnestly discussing the harmonic procedures of Jimi Hendrix and imagining it's going to get him somewhere.

The last decade or so has seen a proliferation of popular-music based higher education courses. The vast majority of these are of no use to anyone, and are really just a cynical exercise in getting bums on seats of universities. There might have been a slim case for them when higher education was free, and a university could be the structure within which to meet like minded people, talk a lot of shit, take a lot of drugs and try some creative ideas out for three years. But at 9K a year, that becomes a hell of an expensive indulgence in navel gazing.

These courses routinely take students with woefully inadequate technical skills who stand no chance whatsoever of ever working, simply so they can fill their numbers. Many of them are focused around music technology and sell themselves as a route into "working in a studio", which is a job that effectively doesn't exist any more. You might as well do a degree in penny farthing maintenance.

The only use in doing such a degree would be if he specifically decides he wants to be a music teacher in a secondary school, and intends to follow it with a PGCE. Since you haven't said that he's either mentally retarded, masochistic or insane, I presume this is not the case.

Now don't get me wrong: I meant what I said about encouraging music if he's good at it and loves it. But don't try to do it by wasting three of the best years of his life on a degree. He needs to get a sense of what he wants to do with it, and then go out and DO it. Leave school, form a band, write songs, set up a home studio, and wear out shoe after shoe going around selling himself to anyone he can corner for long enough.

OR do a degree in a completely unrelated subject, while doing music on the side, with a view that it might take off or might not. This is a path often not considered by obsessive music types but you'd be surprised. One of the best violinists I ever met, who is now leader of a major orchestra, has a maths degree from Oxford. One of the most talented kids I ever taught is now at uni doing marine biology, while gigging every week and selling CDs through his website.

pointydog · 11/07/2011 21:46

I'd smile and say ok.

He's only 14. If he has a good choice of subjects to study over the next few years, including the music natch, then I'd let him get on with it and have the Career Discussions at a later date.

pointydog · 11/07/2011 21:48

And I love oncifidence's post

Ormirian · 12/07/2011 12:33

"OR do a degree in a completely unrelated subject, while doing music on the side, with a view that it might take off or might not!"

I suspect that will be what he does in the end. But not a degree as it has never been on the cards before this. Interesting to see what you say about music technology degrees - I will bear that in mind.

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Libra · 12/07/2011 12:48

I would encourage him to pursue music extra-curricularly (is that a word?) as much as possible.
DS1 is now 17 and since he was 14 he has been involved with the national youth jazz orchestra here in Scotland. He has attended training sessions at weekends, goes on their big summer school and other training camps. He has met a lot of other jazz enthusiasts through this, is involved in 3/4 jazz combos and orchestras and so gets a lot of performance and practice throughout the year.
He is now going to take the St Andrews distance-learning diploma in Jazz having taken Intermediate 2 in music (we are in scotland) in his fourth year. He will do this during his sixth year at school as well has his Advanced Highers. The school is happy for him to do this - they have also arranged for him to do a first-year module at another university in Chemistry by DL.
He doesn't actually have any grades since he has always seen his jazz as his leisure activity, but the diploma is apparently the equivalent of an HND so that will give him more qualifications in the subject.

I suppose what I am saying here is that he has enjoyed his time playing jazz tremendously, met a lot of very dedicated people, and has now been offered the opportunity to move on to a course designed, apparently, for would-be professionals. But he has kept up his other studies and the jazz thing is still for him a very interesting hobby. Lots of the people he hangs out with want to take their jazz professionally, but so far he is sticking to his dreams of a medicine course. We are happy that the jazz has kept him balanced and given him a hobby through which he has learned a lot.

coffeeaddict · 12/07/2011 19:28

I did a postgraduate M.Mus after a non-music first degree. There's always that option. When I decided NOT to pursue the career of 'something in music admin' I was jolly glad to have something more mainstream for my CV.

Ditto good friend who read Classics, did music on the side, became professional musician for ten years, toured the world, realised her career was plateauing and turned to teaching Classics. She was v glad she hadn't read music.

The more options the better is what I think.

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