Army in Secondary Schools

[titchy]

Have read the thread on the visit by army personnel to infants, and would not have any problem - clearly not a recruitment drive and in the same category as 'people who help us'.

But what about the army coming into a secondary school to do various activities for the morning? For some reason I think I would feel quite uncomfortable with this, but can't put my finger on why, when I would be quite happy for, say, the police to come in and do some activities with the children.

What do the MN collective think?

Agreed. But lower in (military) rank is not synonymous with unskilled.

THIS IS NOT A CAREERS TALK!!!!!

I am quite happy with the forces (and any other professions, except perhaps the oldest ) coming in to talk about careers options to years 10 and 11.

I am not happy with army folk coming in to take a morning of fun activities with 12 and 13 year olds. I can't quite put my finger on why, except that I feel it is giving a rather false impression of a job that is dangerous, and dressing it up to be all jolly japes and paintball.

I wish they had come into my school. I had very little direction at school careers wise, although I eventually found my way.

I have recently been into DD's primary school to do a talk on my career (NHS Nurse and then RAF Nursing Officer) to the Y5/6. It was really well received although most of the questions were unexpected!

....my spidey sense was tingling!

Igggi. Name me any job where you go straight in at the top? The Infantry is not the 'lowest level' of the Army.

The lowest 'level' is the rank of Private (Trooper, Signalman et al). You can be a Private and be in the Infantry, but you can also be a Private and be a Chef, Signaller, Clerk, Driver, Engineer, Railwayman, Medic, Mechanic and on and on and on.

and this ^^ is why the Army (and Navy and RAF) NEED to go into schools - if they dont, people assume the worst.

Tichy,

You need to be fit to be in the forces, well you need to be fit to be in any number of jobs, but the forces have the ability, staff, cash etc to be able to turn up at schools and show the children that being fit is a GOOD thing.

Running bouncy assault courses, bringing climbing walls and mobile Laserquest is a good way to show children of all ages how much more fun life is when you are fit to enjoy a miriad of activities.

(and there are a lot of 'jolly japes and paintballs' in the Army. In my career I've been able to take part in activities / sports and 'jolly japes' that wouldnt have been available to me if I had stayed where I was)

I have had no dealings with the army in my life, and have known barely any people with military connections.

When my daughter decided to joinh the RAF cadets at 14 I must admit I was apprehensive as I thought it would be all physical acitivity, would distract dd from her school work, and would add little benefit.

Surprisingly, they do a lot of academic activity as well as physical. She has wanted to join the forces for a long time and although I was not enamoured of the idea initially I am more than happy after witnessing what she does at cadets. She has taken several exams so far and they are very tough, so is challenging mentally. Plus, the physical activities are not just shoot 'em up based. She does DofE with cadets, and will be staring the gold DofE next year, has flown a plane, done aerobatics, flown a glider, is part of a drill and ceremonial display team so goes all over the south west, plays sports and athletics for her wing, engages in community activities, and dedicates a lot of her time in charitable activities.

I think it's great. One thing I have noticed is that any engagement the forces have with children in scrupulously managed, so I imagine a army school visit would not have nefarious purposes.

It is very insulting and wrong to boot to assume that all those who are interested in the army are thick - however this is a recurrent theme on mumsnet, unfortunately.

GetOrf, your daughter sounds great - dagnammitt I wish the Army had got to her first...

()

LtEve I think she will join the army actually - she doesn't think she has got a hope in hell of getting in the RAF due to the cuts, and thinks the army is where it's at now. She is joining army cadets as well when she is in 6th form.

I don't know if she will have a chance of getting into Sandhurst so may go in as a private.

She has a great life with cadets - she is going to Kemble air show this weekend, Fairford Air Tattoo in July, some athletics meet in July, the summer camp in Scotland in August, skiing next year, plus various barbecues, marches, funsraiding events etc the weekends in between. She absolutely loves it.

Two of her fellow cadets in her squadron have been made Lord Lieutenant's cadets as well, so she is aiming for that.

Sorry for hijacking the thread OP - just wanted to say that armed forces involvement with teenagers is not necessarily a bad thing, my daughter's confidence has come on in leaps and bounds (she was badly bullied at school when she was 13 and used to be a nervous wreck). And they don't necessarily reel cadets in and get most of them to join the forces - a lot of her cadet mates have no intention of joining the forces ever, but the love the teamwork, camaraderie and activities.

Re the concern that children in deprived areas would be motivated to join up - DH was from a very deprived area, he joined up 22 years ago. Pretty much all his school friends ended up in jail.

As far as he is concerned the army saved him from prison.

My personal belief, obviously this will not be shared by everyone, is that armed forces offering a career to kids in deprived areas, is a good thing.

Missing - I agree (in broad terms). I am the only person from a 'gang' of 18 best friends that hung about from the ages of 11-18 that has any form of career. Most have jobs, most have kids, but I am definately the highest earner / most successful in my field.

GetOrf - I think your DD is 14/15? There will be a number of changes by the time she is ready to join up, and she may find that some avenues in the RAF that she has dismissed become available again.

I think the RAF is great for more stability etc. As an old and bold wife and mother I do wish I could be more settled that the Army allows me - eg RAF allow 4 and 5 year postings, 4 month OOA tours and a gap of at least 18 months in between tours. However as a youngster with no ties the Army was great - moving every 2 years, lots more posts, lots more overseas posts, more excitement (and more Adv Trg!)

As a 'mum' I would recommend your DD joins the RAF.
As a 'squaddie' I would recommend she joins the Army.
As a 'grunt' I would recommend she becomes an Officer!

I am going to show dd your post LtEve - thank you. She is convinved (I think it is all doom and gloom re the subject at cadets) that the RAF will not be taking on in 3 years. I told her that I am sure it will change.

I want her to join as an officer, she wants to go in as a rank. One question - if you go in as a rank, do you have the opportunity to apply to be an officer once you are there? Or can you not change at all?

One thing she will not even CONSIDER is the navy (beyond the pale, apparently, she curls her lips at the sea cadets )

Yes, she could absolutely apply for a commission later after joining as a soldier. They usually recommend that a soldier does about 3 years to gain experience before applying for a Intermediate Regular Commission.

I'll give a quote from an Army publication that I think sums up the difference between soldiers and officers very well - it's a quote I use quite often!

"In general terms, the soldier provides the heart, muscle, experience and skills needed in combat, while the officer provides the leadership, innovation and the will."

Ok it's a very broad brush, but sums it up quite well

(My brother did sea cadets - all it ever got him was lots of women drooling!)

why does she not think she's get in as an officer, getorf? if she's 14/15 now, then she's got plenty of time to get her exam results etc? does she know which branch she is aiming for?
recruitment is always up and down. i fully expect it to ramp up again hugely in 3/4/5 years as they will have made all the wrong people redundant. it's a cyclical thing.

for the RAF, they really will want her to be solely concentrating on becoming an officer - it's a favourite question 'would you consider joining the ranks', but they really want people who are absolutely certain they have what it takes in leadership terms. it is possible to commission later, but at 14, if she wants to be an officer, she should absolutely be focusing her attention on that. solely.

madwoman - she doesn't think she will stand a chance getting in as an officer as she doesn't want to go to university, and she thinks gaining entrance as an officer as an 18 year old school leaver will be difficult up against graduates.

She doesn't want to go to university - in her words 'I don't want to ponce around for 3 years getting drunk and racking up debts, I want to get in the real world'. I would love her to go to uni - she won't have it.

I still think she should aim to be an officer - if just for the (probably erroneous) assumption that I think they will be nicer to officers in basic training than they are to privates.

what branch though? what does she actually want to do? other than wear a uniform? you do need a degree for some areas, but not others.

sometimes you have to compromise, obviously (i actually originally went to uni for two terms, hated every second of it, left, and then joined up, so ended up in a completely different branch than i had originally been aiming for) and it's not unusual to get offered something else at application due to numbers anyway...

i don't know the current percentage of direct entrants, but i know a man that might... i think he's in bastion at the mo though

however if she thinks she doesn't stand a chance, she probably doesn't , not from an educational perspective, but from a confidence and ambition aspect. if she wants to get in as an officer, she has to be absolutely determined that's what she wants to do. end of. and if she displays the right stuff at selection, no-one will care whether she has a degree or not.

I'll probably get flamed here, but I would have a big problem with the army presenting themselves as a provider of fun activities. If you join the army you may well have to kill people, sometimes including civilians. I would have deep issues with any child of mine deciding to do this. Is this made clear in cadets? Perhaps before or after the army visit, the school could hold some sort of moral debate about this? As for the post about a DC being asked to pose with a gun that was used in Afghanistan, words fail me!

The cadets are not used as a vehicle for recruiting. The instructors do not have to come from military backgrounds. But yes, cadets will find out about all aspects of the military, and that is bound to include that the Government may send the military into harms way. And frankly, I don't see how that could possibly come as a surprise unless there was a child who had been woefully cut off from news, current events and most of the history curriculum.

There is never any "bait and switch" - if anyone approaches the military for employment, the duties and risks will be made just as clear as the benefits from the first interview onwards.

cadets? why would it be made clear in cadets? cadets don't kill people. they shoot at targets. although some cadets do apply to the join the military, most don't. ergo, most kids join cadets to do fun stuff, not kill people. you have to be an adult and join the actual military if you want to do that. and even if you've been a cadet, and apply, you might not get in. the military take a particularly dim view of people who turn up thinking it's all about killing and want to crack on.

as a cadet, i learnt to fly, took part in winter mountaineering courses, learnt to canoe and kayak, rock climbed/ abseiled, continued with my duke of edinburgh's award, learnt about aeronautics, sat in the back of lots of planes doing aerobatics, visited loads of places, did a lot of sport, went bowling, um... no killing as far as i can remember. and no recruitment. the question isn't even asked. completely different organisation. run by volunteers. who haven't necessarily ever been in the active military at all, let alone fired a gun in operations.

why would cadets be told they would have to kill civilians? weird. they aren't in the army/raf/navy. they are children. having fun.

hope that clears a few misconceptions up for you, lilith.

the cadets are a completely different kettle of fish to a recruiting team. one is a youth activity. one is, well, y'know, the military.

Getorf I second the comments about her going in as an officer. She can commission from the ranks but the competition will be much harder and so it's much more difficult to do this - you have to be REALLY good at your job.

What branch is she interested in? If she is really committed she must fight for it. When I attended my selection interview at Cranwell nearly half of the applicants were on their second application. The RAF encourage this, they see it as commitment, a candidate who really wants to join. She may of course get through first time, plenty do (I don't want to sound doom and gloom).

not me.

first app was for a bursary anyway. interestingly, i kept in touch with the two girls who were successful in their scholarship app. neither joined up in the end

good job i didn't get a bursary really, as i left uni and went in as direct entrant anyway. karma.

getorf from an Army perspective definitely agree about going in as an officer. However the average age for men is 24 years old and I would suspect for women 21/22 years approx (DH still serving and that is his educated guess!) Even when I joined in the mid 1980s non- graduates were in the minority and when you looked closer at the non-graduates the successful ones were not 18 and had done something between school and Sandhurst. That isn't to say that you can't join and succeed at 18 but just that statistically it is much more difficult.

I've asked DH. Although you can in theory join as an officer at 18, it's vanishingly rare for that to happen these days (Prince Harry being the high profile exception).

Bear in mind that one possible outcome of an early application is 'show again' - and if you do, that will be taken as a sign of commitment.

So a parallel question to consider is what else she could do instead of university that would fit possible recruitment timelines. The answer is -more or less anything. A mundane job (whilst saving up) at least show work ethic and time-keeping (and planning/preparation for the rest of the time). Things involving independent travel overseas (especially if combined with Good Works) will probably be regarded favourably, as would other community volunteering, especially if in a leadership role. Joining the TA obviously would show continuing commitment, but is by no means required.