Scottish Secondary - Please help. New National 4/5 how many will your council allow?

[mustdash]

Sorry this is long, but please help if you can.

I expect you'll only know the answer to this if you are a secondary teacher, or have a child currently in S1 or P7. I'll ask anyway, in the hope of getting enough answers to get some idea about how screwed children in Angus are going to be, compared to the rest of Scotland, if not the whole UK.

I discovered yesterday that for the new CfE National 4/5s Angus are only going to permit 5 subjects. I believe that nationally councils are allowed to chose a number between 5 and 8, and that the number they chose will apply to all state schools in their burgh.

I am seriously concerned that if children in Angus can only chose 5 subjects they will be badly disadvantaged in the future career or education market, and feel that S3 is far too young to be narrowing down such serious choices.

My thoughts, still a little random and ill informed are these;-

• one of the main benefits of the "old' Scottish system was that having Highers before CSYS/Advanced Higher/A level was that it gave a broader education, and allowed children the opportunity to go into subjects in some depth before committing to final secondary year or uni. We are now asking children to make these choices 2 years earlier.

• if you chose a subject at the end of S3, and later discover you don't want to/aren't capable of taking it any further, you are already cutting down your Higher options. (Personal experience here, loved O grade Physics, hated hated Higher, and dropped it - fortunately I was lucky enough to be able to pick up a crash higher in another subject)

• academic children will be forced to drop arts subjects in S3, since they won't have the scope to do eg 3 sciences, and music/art.

• fewer children doing "minority" subjects like eg art or music will mean fewer teachers and resources...and that our children will face a narrow and restrictive curriculum - the opposite of what I thought CfE was supposed to achieve.

• Angus council have apparently stated that 5 subjects is sufficient because

a) that's what all the other councils are doing and b) five is the average number of standard/o grade type subject currently being sat by pupils at the end of S4.

Though they clearly have no grasp of how averages work, and seem to think that it is acceptable to apply a lowest common denominator approach to the whole system, I can't believe it is the same everywhere.

Can you please tell me how many subjects your council will be allowing for the current S1/P7 children onwards?

Sorry this is so long, and thanks for reading this far! Any other random thoughts very welcome!

Can anyone help me with wording an e-mail?

Is something like this any use?

Dear xxxxx

I am a parent of a child whose education will now be conducted under the new CfE and I have been reading about what is proposed in respect of the exam / academic challenge and other changes to our children's education.

I am extremely concerned about the lack of information about the content, assessment and academic rigour within this curriculm and therefore would be very much obliged if you would clarify what has replaced 5 - 14 progression.

My reading has also led me to understand that those candidates who would at present sit an external standard grade at foundation level will now be assessed wholly within their schooIs. Needless to say, this surprises me somewhat and I would therefore appreciate both clarification of this point and request details of the academic content of the new Nationals at all levels. I find it hard to believe that a National 4 will be recognised by employers or colleges if it is merely a certificate from school.

In addition, it seems there is some confusion over both the number of National 5 subjects available to pupils - will it be a matter of variance from school to school, with some schools offering as few as 5 subjects? If this is so, then it somewhat belies the ethos of a broad and general education, does it not?

My final concern is in respect of the changes to Highers and how Universities will regard the proposals for Higher courses to be spread over two years. Will the new Higher course have parity and an equal amount of academic depth as an A level, thus making an Honours Degree in Scotland a three year course, as it is in England? Will the courses that, at present, require a candidate to achieve five Highers in one sitting still recognise these new exams?

I appreciate these are weighty questions, but I am equally sure that you appreciate my concerns as a parent. This affects my children's futures. I very much look forward to clarification on all questions raised within this letter and I would appreciate a prompt response in respect of the same.

Yours etc

In addition, it seems there is some confusion over both the number

Delete both and plural number! Sorry, more hurry, less haste.

I think that email is very good. If everyone on here did the same you never know, it might wake up someone somewhere.

One point: National 4 is, unbelievably, actually equivalent to general standard grade, not foundation.

Also, two very small things:

1. There is a tiny typo: "within their schooIs"
2. Should "external standard grade" be "externally examined standard grade"?

Let us know how you get on.

Just an idea, can we link this page to the local Scottish sites on the forum?

^One point: National 4 is, unbelievably, actually equivalent to general standard grade, not foundation.

Also, two very small things:

1. There is a tiny typo: "within their schooIs"
2. Should "external standard grade" be "externally examined standard grade"?^

Thank you, I missed those. More hurry etc... :o

Just an idea, can we link this page to the local Scottish sites on the forum?

Please do - it's a bit late in the day, perhaps, but the more this is known about, the less of a surprise it will be when the whole thing is called into question.

I have a P6 who will go next summer to a high school where they make choices for S2&3 and then S3&4 allowing them to concentrate on half the exams at once. It's a concern that this has been planned for quite some time and yet they don't seem to know what the hell they are doing.

I work in early years where a lot of work has been started in the last 5 years for the change over but it's still not sure about things which is ridiculous. If you're going to implement something you should know which way it should be going and easily understood for parents.

I've been putting off doing anything about this because I hate not getting my way, and as has been said above, it is likely that no one will take this up. However. It is the new parents meeting at the high school DD1 will attend tonight. I want to see what the Parent Council say, and the Head, so that at least what I do next is informed.

Thank you for the help with constructing the letter, and for all the additional background info you have given me.

I'll report back.

I've seen an ad by the SQA in the local paper tonight which says they are currently working with parents and teachers in your local area to develop new qualifications to prepare pupils for college, uni and employment. Just a load of blurb really.

Let us know how you get on, dash

TESS have quoted this verbatim in last week's mag. Nice of them to give the council a chance to respond, but to say that what I'd written was a "MN Panic" .

@mustdash - is it online? Can you link?

Just coming back to this as new term is getting under way and I am still no further forward in getting my head round all of this.

TESS link here

Also, just to update from a personal perspective, I decided not to do anything more about it, after talking to the head of DD1's new school. According to him, all schools in angus will now be offering 6 national 5s. He also said that the discussions with the universities (he claimed including Edinburgh, and Oxbridge ) were also positive, and well advanced, just not announced.

A teacher who works in Dundee told me that his school was looking at 3, but I'm sure he must be wrong..... .

DD1 has started High School, and so far, is absolutely loving it.

interesting piece in TES from December last year about Aberdeenshire

I just found this too, when going online to find the piece from last week.

I don't understand why the Parent Council forum hasn't picked up on this.

Absolute madness.

MUSTDASH I assume the Dundee teacher meant 3 subject to be chosen by the pupil, + Maths and English.

My ds3 has just started S3 in a north Fife school, and will, thankfully not be caught up in this whole appalling, ill thought-out mess. However, DS4 is still pre school so it does concern me.

The past few years, I've watched with horror the various changes in primary schools - our DS primary was a pilot for the PLP crap, which seemed an exercise in obscuring from parents any real information about the progress of a child (in relation to his/her peers) from it's parents. When pressed for actual information, the usual "it is the progress of the individual not the class that's important" was trotted out, and in numerous meetings with the schools teachers/head we laid out our main argument against this - having some idea where you child is against his peer group (locally and nationally) is incredibly important in terms of identifying areas where the child needs extra help/tutoring. Smiley traffic light report cards containing no useful information are a pointless waste of time, for teachers and parents.
For 3 years in a row, we had these non-report cards, from which you would deduce that out DS2 (dyslexic and slipping further back every term at this point) had NO problems or issues at all at school, when in fact he was struggling and starting to turn off from education. We were in a position to know that the "happy-smiley everything is progressing well report card" wasn't true, and also strong willed enough to challenge the school about it, but many parents are oblivious to the problems (don't know, don't want to know, and believe all the sugary statements about the wonderful new system). I had very little success in trying to raise awareness of the changes with other parents.

I remember one "explanatory" meeting at the school, where DH and I sat in horror at what was being said in the Q and A session - "getting the answer wrong in maths is not important, it's the process that's important" (in response to a Q about why a DC wrong maths Q were not being corrected),

my DH interjection of "if they are getting the answers wrong perhaps they don't understand the PROCESS", went down like a lead balloon.

As I said, utter madness. And now we are to have a whole generation of students with potentially damaged life chances when they leave school ..... Universities are going to have serious issues with admissions criteria if some schools only allow 5 nat5 exams, and some allow up to 10. Also, taking highers 2 or 3 at a time instead of 5 in one sitting can cause problems with entry to elite courses such as Medicine and Vet Med (and incidentally in these courses Standard Grade/GCSE results are a crucial part of the selection process), the Unis want to see that the student can handle a heavy and academically rigorous workload.

It is easy for the powers-that-be to say change is always threatening and we (parents) are just reacting to change and it will all be much better than it was before....... but I think in this case it's been a long series of ill thought out, half-arsed and badly implemented changes which will benefit no one, not staff, pupils or parents, but may save the education authorities a pile of cash.

Having resisted going down the private education route for DS1-3 (decent enough local secondary supplemented by tutoring in key subjects ), we are now actively considering it for DS4. We know we are very lucky we can consider that option.

I believe if they could illustrate why they believe the new system will work, most parents be more supportive.

I absolutely agree with you about the cost. I'd love to know how much money they'll save in the councils having the children sit 5 or 6, rather than 8 subjects.

I agree too with what you say about the sugary report cards. DD2's friends parents believe their daughters have had the most amazing year in school ever..... I can't believe they fall for it. Even the sugariest (is that even a word, sorry) report card if written by an effective teacher, who knows the child, can be an accurate picture. If the teacher isn't up to it though, it is easiest for them just to write a load of meaningless nonsense. That is another whole issue though. I could rant forever !

.... I think those who are going to be let down the most, are not the "bright kids", but the large number who are going to have NO nationally assessed exams at age 16......

oldmum - totally agree with your posts, I just wish other parents took the time to research what the CfE really means for their children.

mustdash - I've had some friends say how fantastic their child is doing compared to past years reports. Maybe if I through in a few smiley faces in my reports at work it will have the same reaction, worth a shot...

"throw"

oldmum, that was definitely the concern I had coming away from talking to DD1s head.

sorry hit post before I'd finished. I think many parents don't even realise that this is a possibility. I don't recall seeing any figures about the children who would be condemned sitting Nat 4s.

kaumana, there is always room for a smiley. Give it a go, you never know.

My understanding is, the Nat 4 is like foundation/general, and only the "credit" kids would get to do Nat 5?

I don't know the % of kids who sit Foundation, general or credit exams in each subject, but I THINK that it may be roughly thirds do each exam, with pupils sitting 2 exams in each subject (foundation&general or general&credit). So what's going to happen to all the pupils who at are mid scoring "General" students? Currently they get to sit General and Credit exams, so if they make good progress over the last 3 or 4 months of the course, they can achieve a Credit grade...... will they be pushed down to the Nat 4 or up to the Nat 5..... late developers/late to mature could be left without the means to progress to Higher exams, as far as I can see. Though there is so little hard information coming from the schools, it's hard to tell.....