Scottish Secondary - Please help. New National 4/5 how many will your council allow?

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Sorry this is long, but please help if you can.

I expect you'll only know the answer to this if you are a secondary teacher, or have a child currently in S1 or P7. I'll ask anyway, in the hope of getting enough answers to get some idea about how screwed children in Angus are going to be, compared to the rest of Scotland, if not the whole UK.

I discovered yesterday that for the new CfE National 4/5s Angus are only going to permit 5 subjects. I believe that nationally councils are allowed to chose a number between 5 and 8, and that the number they chose will apply to all state schools in their burgh.

I am seriously concerned that if children in Angus can only chose 5 subjects they will be badly disadvantaged in the future career or education market, and feel that S3 is far too young to be narrowing down such serious choices.

My thoughts, still a little random and ill informed are these;-

• one of the main benefits of the "old' Scottish system was that having Highers before CSYS/Advanced Higher/A level was that it gave a broader education, and allowed children the opportunity to go into subjects in some depth before committing to final secondary year or uni. We are now asking children to make these choices 2 years earlier.

• if you chose a subject at the end of S3, and later discover you don't want to/aren't capable of taking it any further, you are already cutting down your Higher options. (Personal experience here, loved O grade Physics, hated hated Higher, and dropped it - fortunately I was lucky enough to be able to pick up a crash higher in another subject)

• academic children will be forced to drop arts subjects in S3, since they won't have the scope to do eg 3 sciences, and music/art.

• fewer children doing "minority" subjects like eg art or music will mean fewer teachers and resources...and that our children will face a narrow and restrictive curriculum - the opposite of what I thought CfE was supposed to achieve.

• Angus council have apparently stated that 5 subjects is sufficient because

a) that's what all the other councils are doing and b) five is the average number of standard/o grade type subject currently being sat by pupils at the end of S4.

Though they clearly have no grasp of how averages work, and seem to think that it is acceptable to apply a lowest common denominator approach to the whole system, I can't believe it is the same everywhere.

Can you please tell me how many subjects your council will be allowing for the current S1/P7 children onwards?

Sorry this is so long, and thanks for reading this far! Any other random thoughts very welcome!

I'm afraid I don't know into that level of detail as my son was in first year until Tuesday this week when they moved them all forward. They have a 30 period week too.

5 x English
4 x Maths
4 x Science
3 x social subjects (History/Georgraphy/Modern studies)
2 x Music
2 x Art
2 x Tech
3 x French
2 x PE
2 x RE
1 x Home Ec

I might be able to link some of the info from their school about the choices etc. I'll away and look.

If you have a look at the last few slides on this presentation, it shows roughly what the schools are doing:

www.dunblanehighschool.org.uk/images/stories/dhs/documents/Primary%20Info%20Evening%20DPS%20Oct%202012.pdf

My DD is just about to move into 3rd year at the end of may

They are allowed to take 8 subjects at n4/5 , 9 if they want to do PE studies as they can do that in their core PE time

Compulsory subjects are

English
Maths
French
Core PE
One social subject
One science

Then the usual choices of other sciences and languages, , music, drama, art, various computing and technical subjects , RMPS, etc

I'd be interested to see how they are managing to do that Kristina, do you have access to any on-line info about it?

I just find it amazing that the schools are basically interpreting the brief very differently from each other - I worry that they are gambling with the future of a lot of young people.

Do you mean the number of periods allocated to each subject? I will have that in a few weeks once DD gets her new timetable

Sorry I don't think there's anything online except on the school website, which obviously I don't want to link to

okay, thanks. I linked to mine above to show how the standard route a lot of schools are taking versus what ours is doing - they are saying that to get the requisite hours in for 7 subjects @N5, they are starting 4th year as early as they can without compromising the hours they need to do for the BGE. However yourself and a few others I think have said that they will be allowed up to 8, just wondered how they are mananging to fit it in. I think even 7 seems to be quite hard to limit down to - if they do Maths, English and 3 sciences for example then that only leaves 2 subjects to choose - so, do they give up Art, a Language, Geography, History etc. I know my son would like to do Something with his art/computer side too so I think it makes it hard to get a rounded balance. I am already looking to see what ones he could pick up in 5th or 6th year instead. Very hard I think.

Looks like 7 at ds' school. He's only in S1, so I haven't had to go in to the detail yet.

However, I do know that one of the East Kilbride schools makes their S1s make choices as to what they are going to do in S2 and start specialising then!

One of his friends at that EK school is already having to choose which "type" of science she is going to do in S2 - so having to think now about what she would be wanting to do at Uni Far too soon. Ds, on the other hand, will still be doing "Science" in S2 and will only specialise to Physics and/or Chemistry and/or Biology in S3.

Yes we have the same problem with science. Dd is thinking about medicine so she has to do chemistry and biology. They have 4 compulsory of eng, maths , French and a social subject . So that only leaves her 2 columns -one of the computing type subjects and one of the creative arts ones . Plus PE

If you only have seven subjects that's limiting the choice even further

I don't understand how her school can do 9 subjects and others only 7.

Though having seen tonight's trig homework they seem to be pushing them already . Either that or I am very dim as I can't do second year maths . I've no idea how I got a higher some time in the last century

It seems that my DS (S2) has been following the CfE curriculum in maths and English for the past year. Makes sense as the year above are doing so. They have had mock exams at N5 level this term

I was very surprised when I saw dd's option sheet earlier this year. Although they are limited to 6 subjects, they have complete free choice across the board. I will be very surprised if they manage to timetable this for everyone!

Our local school has 4 options which combined with compulsory English and Maths gives 6 subjects for S3.

6 is far too restrictive in my opinion for a 14 year old. They are effectively choosing their Higher subjects.

Each school seems to be inventing it's own course systems (our local school isn't planning to present pupils for National 5 exams.) This pick and mix approach to (supposedly national) exams can only cause problems for employers and Universities.

I don't understand how it has been allowed to develop this way. I think it is very poor but most parents irl don't seem to mind! Or is everyone else too polite to say anything?

Sorry my error " 6 subjects for S4".

I was carried away with putting 6 in bold. I'll just add 6 for good measure.

so, if they are not presenting pupils for N5 exams, what are they doing?

N4s can be internally assessed if the schools curriculum is signed off as appropriate and they are deemed competent to assess (so I understand) but I didn't know that was an alternate route to N5 exams.

They are not presenting for external exams until Higher.

Our head is actually very enthusiastic about it all. He says that the standard model is 6 but they believe that doing it they way they are, that they can support 7 - but why some have chosen 5 and how some are saying 8 I have no idea.

You would think that if the standard model is 6, then that should be set as the minimum at least.

It is strange how they are all doing different things, I am not sure how much sharing has been done across authorities or schools within authorities. I guess that schools are sometimes playing to their strengths depending on their catchment but surely the whole ethos is about people developing their full potential and I'm not sure that this is ticking all the boxes any mnore than the previous system was.

To be clear I should say there are to be different pathways so if they don't consider Higher in S5 is appropriate then there is a two-year N5 course, i.e examined in S5. Then there are the internally asssessed N4 courses.

S3Worries - indeed!!!!!

It's the "all [schools] doing different things " that gets me wondering tbh. I can't see it lasting but our children are the guinea pigs.

A couple of years ago a parent said to me of the new curriculum "Well at the end they will all sit the same exams." But that won't be the case, it will depend on which High School you attend.

8 nationals in my dc school. This includes English and Maths. On top of the 8 nations there will be PE, PSE & possibly RE as enhancement classes. The timetable is being altered to accommodate this but I'm re them fitting it all in.

Dd is about to go into 2nd year in 3 weeks and has already had to choose her subject. They have to do Maths/English/French then she has chosen Creative Media Design, Modern Studies, Home Economics, Biology and an enriched subject which had a wide variety and she has chosen "Be the Boss" She'll also need to do PE as a compulsary but unless she has chosen it, then doesn't get an exam in it.

They reckon she'll sit National 5's due to mostly 1's and 2's in all area's so far. They said the National 4's will still be a qualification for those who would have been in foundation classes.

S3Worries, I'd be VERY worried if school isn't going to present for N5s in S4 a it basically means those leaving at 16 leave without any externally assessed quals.

Number of subjects is supposed to be determined at school level but most councils seem to have made the decision for schools. I find too in Aberdeen that everyone you speak to is worried but nobody is saying anything - I think because they have no info. I'm wondering if an e-petition is the way forward here to attain equality throughout the country....

I'd sign a petition as it's unfair on those who are only allowed 5 while others do 8! Also a lot more pressure on those sitting 8 compared to the ones sitting 5! Equality is the way forward.

Grovee, is it 5 national 4s which they choose themselves plus the compulsories - maths & english?

As I understood it, the difference between the standard grades and the nationals were that if, at the end of 4th year, you were not ready to sit the national 5 exams, you continue with it into 5th ear and do it at the end of that academic year. That would benefit the kids who would otherwise leave at end of sS4, considering there are hardly any jobs & precious few apprenticeships on the go for them.