JFS /Yavneh College

[nearlyyear5]

Does anyone have children in these schools and how good are they really? I know that they both have an outstanding Ofsted in every category and that the academic results for JFS are amazing for a comprehensive but are they as good as they seem to be? We are in a real quandry about whether to concentrate our efforts on these schools or go for private secondary. The DC's are very able and motivated and currently in Jewish primaries where the expectation is that they will move to one of these schools so it's very hard to get an objective view as to whether they're as good as we're led to believe.

I'm looking for them to be challenged academically but to be happy and motivated in a school with good discipline, where children are expected to work to the best of their abilities and are supported where they struggle. I'm also looking for excellent and varied sport and I know nothing about the sport in these schools but it's a very important consideration for us.

As far as I know, they are both good - I know people with kids at both who are happy. Academically, JFS is better than Yavneh - I've heard the fast stream is excellent (akin to private school) for the brightest kids. Otherwise, its size means middling children can get a bit lost. i know some dislike Yavneh as see it as far too strict (kids locked in isolation rooms for a day for v minor transgressions etc) but I know some like it. Academically it seemed inferior to JFS.

Have you thought of JCOSS? New pluralist Jewish school, looks great. Know severa; there who LOVE it.

Sport at Yavneh bit dull, don't know about JCO; better facilities at JFS due to size obviously.

I have a DS at Yavneh in Y8 and he's very happy indeed. He's also thriving academically - with 5s and 6s in most subjects (from a base of 4s and 5s at the end of primary) with end of KS3 targets of 6s and 7s. To be fair, though, friends of mine with children in middle or lower sets complain that their children don't get the best teachers, that these are kept for the top sets. It's difficult to judge this. My DS is himself in a couple of middle sets and hasn't made this complaint; however he's eager to move up due to the curriculum being "boring" (his words) in the middle sets.

Since my DS isn't sporty, I don't know much, but there's lots of provision and a great keenness amongst the staff to encourage this side of things. There are school and after school activities in all sorts of sports.

It is true the school is strict but don't believe all you hear about being locked all day in isolation rooms. We have had - it is true - quibbles about group punishments (shorter break) for a class where a few kids have been noisy, but in general, if your child is well behaved, they won't be bothered by this. The uniform policy is also seemingly very strict but again, this masks a lot of flexibility, especially when the children first start. On the plus side there's a system of credits which means the children get lots of encouragement to behave well and most do. However, like all comprehensives there will be all sorts in the school.

For an academic child it's a wonderful school. The teaching is excellent and even in subjects my DS doesn't enjoy, they've managed to enthuse him. He's also made some wonderful friends: the lunchtime enrichments (like after school clubs, but 40 minutes mid-day) mean that children get a chance to meet children from other classes and other years in varied topics from chess, latin and radio broadcasting to movie reviews and 'history of Borehamwood'.

Lunch itself is a bugbear. The cafeteria is small and (as far as I can tell) not well organised. The children complain about unappetising food and that it is frequently cold.

I'd strongly recommend the school. If comparing to JFS, remember also that it's half the size when at full capacity: a great strength in my opinion.

Thank you both very much for your comments. It's good to know what the general feelings towards both schools are. From everything I've heard it's pretty much a given that the academics in both schools are very good and I'm looking forward to seeing Yavneh's first GCSE results and my eldest is on course for 5's in every area so I'm hoping that this will get him into the top streams at either school.

I have heard that the food at Yavneh isn't very good from a few other parents but as I cook every evening anyway as long as they found something to eat then it's not something which would worry me. I think that the sport is going to be the sticking point, it sounds so stupid doesn't it to worry so much about that but my eldest really does live and breathe playing sport and my DH made the mistake of taking him past the Habs and UCS playing fields to show him the rugby and football pitches which really wasn't helpful as it has just wetted his appetite for being able to play a huge variety of sports when he moves on from his primary school.

I too make up for paltry lunches with decent supper.

As for sport: I don't think its stupid to worry about it if it's so important to your child. But what about after-school provision elsewhere? There are some great clubs around for rugby, cricket, football etc so if the school doesn't provide enough high quality sport, perhaps this can be made up elsewhere. In any event: if I were you I'd make a point about looking into it at the open day and asking to speak to the PE staff. I'm sure they'd be delighted to have a chat with you.

The other consideration that I would make is the length of the school day and how close you live to either school. The burden of homework in the top sets can make it a long day and I'd certainly be inclined to choose the school with the shorter journey. Then again, if your child can get there by public transport, perhaps that should be the consideration as a lot of sports clubs run after school and you don't want to be lumbered with transporting your little darling every time there's a late finish (the school buses obviously only run for the standard school day).

Chag Sameach!

Justa

I know a couple of people who went to JFS recently, they are the cousins of my cousins (so not my relatives). One did A-levels last year and got into his first choice Uni to study Economics and Maths (I think UCL), and the other just started a Masters in Manchester. They both did really well and loved it there, and they are really nice guys.

Don't know anyone at/went to Yavneh. Is it true that Dads aren't allowed to watch their daughters in schools plays or something? I really don't believe this, my cousin's wife said it, but I think she was talking rubbish....

She's talking (I'm afraid) rubbish. Although I think sports days are out of bounds for all parents (much to my delight - I hated the mothers' race and all that nonsense at DC's primary).

Y's not as religious as rumour would suggest, but religion is there if your child is interested. So, there are morning prayers for those who want to come early (with the added bribe incentive of free breakfast), but only the truly dedicated will turn up. In fact, as a middle-of-the-road type myself, I'm quite gratified that DC is being exposed to a rich religious education (Jewish history is particularly well taught). At least when he decides to rebel against it all, he'll be doing so from a position of knowledge.

I thought she might be talking rubbish! It's amazing how misinformed people are!

It's also good to hear from current parents too! I shall be setting my cousin and his wife straight - they are definitely eventually considering Jewish secondaries (their DC are in Jewish primaries), and I am surprised they are so ill-informed, lol!

Bump.

Would love to hear any more about these schools as I am also making up my mind
My dc is not at Jewish primary. Is there a lot more Hebrew at y compared to jfs?

My DC wasn't at a Jewish primary and caught up just dandy and is in the middle set for the relevant subjects (albeit he came with a good grounding in Hebrew thanks to my heroic efforts over the years and a decent knowledge of Jewish studies from home). There's lots more Jewish studies stuff than you'd be used to, but well taught - intellectually challenging in parts - and the teachers give loads of credit to children who make an effort (sadly many don't). What's nice is that they connect between the lessons, so they'll be learning the biblical text in one lesson, the relevant festival in an assembly session and the commentary from the Middle Ages scholars (Talmud) in a third. I know this sounds heavy if you're not used to it, but as I say, can be quite interesting, even for a vehemently non-shul attendee like my DS!

We are also looking at both schools. We saw both last autumn at their open days. I was hugely disappointed with Yavneh tbh. I had heard such good things about it but I found the atmosphere very 'cold', no work on the walls etc and the library was disappointing.

JFS, in spite of it being a much, much bigger school, had a much warmer atmosphere and I was v impressed. A proper library (sorry, I'm a bit hung up on libraries, I think they should be at the heart of any good secondary school). And amazing facilities.

The only downside of all the Jewish schools is no swimming! I don't know why JFS don't have a pool, they have fantastic facilities for all other sports. Unless it's a religious thing but even then they could have single sex swimming couldn't they? My dd's a keen swimmer so we're looking at Watford Grammar and the private schools which all have pools.

But all in all we have a lot of friends whose children are at JFS and I barely hear a bad thing about it.

Interesting to hear that. We didn't consider JFS at all because of distance and its size. I so agree with gut feelings in this regard. Friends of ours really disliked the open evening at Yavneh as there was so much emphasis on discipline. We on the other hand were relieved to hear how strict it was since our DC had suffered so from a lax discipline at his primary.

We looked at both Yavneh and JFS and also JCOSS but JCOSS was the one that really shone out for us. DD is going to Watford Grammar, partly because of the swimming too! - that was a big draw for us too Dancergirl - but a bit of me is sad my DD isn't going to JCOSS - it seemed such a lovely school, and everything I've heard from people with kids there is fantastic. JFS would have been our 3rd choice - I liked it much more than I expected to and academically I've heard it is excellent (certainly for the kids in the academic stream).

I would recommend those looking at Jewish schools do look at JCOSS too.

Yavneh lost us as a family before we even stepped through the door - my husband came without a kippah (they hadn't said you needed to bring one) to the open evening. They said we had to either buy one for a pound, or we could 'have one of the paper ones they give to naughty children who forget theirs' for free!!! Ie a less religious parent = equivalent to a naughty child. So disrespectful. After that, even an amazing prsentation would have had its work cut out to win us over. It wasn't; I felt the school was far the weakest of the 3, for us.

Though I do know parents there whose kids do like it. But definitely not for us! In fact, the only school of 9 we visited I crossed off the list immediately...

breadandbutterfly - I saw JCoss last autumn too and I didn't like it at all!

I like a traditional school with good discipline and where children have respect for their teachers. I didn't get that feeling at all at JCoss, I may be wrong but I just got the feeling that pupils are very much on a par with teachers. I got into a bit of a kerfuffle with the D and T teacher about spelling mistakes not being corrected (yes I know it was D and T and not English but to me spelling is hugely important and should go right across the board of subjects). She gave me a speil about children not being 'demoralised' etc. It was all too touchy-feely for me. And when I asked about lack of newspapers in the library, I was told they were thinking of getting First News!

That's terrible at Yavneh - so rude!

Well done to your dd for getting into Watford Grammar, really fantastic! Where do you live? We're in the 'rest of the admission area' so not too high a chance for us but who knows. Do you know what proportion are Jewish? Did you also look at Parmiters? Haven't seen Parmiters yet but on paper I really like the look of it.

Not too high a proportion are Jewish - so please send your DD to up the numbers! Actually, I have no idea how many are Jewish; I'm making that bit up - we'll find out when she starts, but I am happy with multicultural, as long as all the groups get along, which they seem to at WG. We moved to live in the inner area as we had been outside the admissions area and are kind of on the edge of the inner area if you know what I mean - still makes admission slightly easier than from the outer area.

We visited Parmiters and really liked it - I thought the kids seemed really nice and mature and academically it's excellent; again, know parents with kids there who are 100% happy. It's still near the top of my list for my dd2 and ds, who are different to dd1 in terms of what might be suitable for them - keeping an open mind - we'll have a better idea once dd1 starts at WG.

Re JCOSS, I think you're probably right that the discipline is less strict - probably because the older kids aren't there yet, they don't need such strict discipline?

I quite like a policy of mutual respect - as long as they are strict on academic discipline ie children expected to achieve what they're capable of rather than what they can get away with, and here I think JCOSS scores high;y - they seemed to have clear policies in place for monitoring children's academic progress and informing parents of this - which I liked.

I just found this thread. My dilemma is that I'm home educating my twin daughters and I applied late for the Jewish secondaries, but to my amazement we got places offered at Jcoss (first choice) and then Yavneh called about the SIF form and said they have places also. Yavneh is much easier for us to get to from Stanmore so I thought maybe we should consider it, but I've been worried reading about the authoritarian regime there and the isolation unit. My kids are both very academic and very advanced mathematically, but both have ADD and have never sat in a classroom. They are chatty, active kids and I can't imagine they wouldn't break some classroom rules. I would never permit a kid of mine to be put in a naughty room. Can I just tell Yavneh that? What rights do I have over punishments meted out in a state school?

Err none - if you want them to attend a particular school you agree to abide by that school's rules. If you don't like that continue to HE.

If they have diagnosed SEN then you need to make sure the school can accommodate those needs but I doubt any school would agree to rewrite its discipline rules - it wouldn't be fair on other pupils for a start.

I don't know either of the schools but would suggest you discuss your dd's needs with them and ask about their discipline measures - you might be surprised - discipline in secondaries doesn't usually involve naughty corners!

It may well involve them being removed from the classroom though - you can't expect them to stay in a class situation if they are disrupting the learning of others, irrespective of SEN.

Can I get SEN for ADD? I can't imagine my girls would be very disruptive, but they might find it really hard to learn classroom etiquette, again they might adjust quickly.

Definitely not Yavneh. Really. Or naughty room for them, repeatedly.

JCOSS has a more accomodating mindset I think.

breadandbutterfly are you writing about Yavneh from experience? In my own experience (DS there now a couple of years) it is strict, but generally fair. The children know what the sanctions are and on the whole abide by them. I would definitely recommend it for bright, academically minded children.

It seems as though B&B is intent on dragging the school's name through the mud. Every post mentions naughty children, naughty rooms etc. As for bringing a kippah, it is expected at an Orthodox school.

I DO have kids at the school and they are happy. They've had a couple of issues along the way. No school is fault free and neither is Yavneh but is isn't such a terrible place that this one poster is making it out to be.

Crumbs! Locking children in cupboards! If that were in the slightest way true, wouldn't someone be complaining?

As I've said before on another thread, go with your gut feeling. If you don't like strong heads, this isn't one for you. In our case, our DS has gone from being a timid, young-for-the-year to a confident, thriving both socially and academically.

He was apprehensive about the strict rules, but soon found out from the excellent pastoral carer in Y7 that there was much flexibility within the apparent rigidity. I.e. if you're generally good, no one will bat an eye about an occasional slip.

There's also a lot to be said to sending a child to a local school, or at least one where there are friends he can see after school/travel back with etc.

No, I don't have children there, clearly - given my views on the school, it would be a bit weird to choose to send my own dcs there!

I do however know lots of people who do have dcs there.

As i said, upthread, Yavneh is a bit marmite - you either love or hate it. You can guess which camp i fall into and i know many people who feel the same. But clearly some are happy with it.

Ima - I am not "intent on dragging the school's name through the mud" - I have no reason to do that as it doesn't affect me personally. I do feel an obligation to warn a fellow MNetter of the potential downsides of the school. Feel free to disagree by pointing out what you see as the school's advantages - but not by making groundless ad hominem attacks.