Oxbridge applications - requirements other than the academic

[squashpie]

Hi,

I know two friends' children who have offers from Cambridge. They are both great kids, one boy, one girl. They are obviously mega-bright and should do very well on the academic side of things. Also, the boy plays an instrument and rows and the girl is something like grade 7 on the piano.

Do you need to have all the 'extra' stuff to be accepted into Oxbridge. Is that how they distinguish between all the bright kids out there: by their extra curricular achievements?

In my (Russell Group) experience, admissions tutors are canny people who know they are likely to be stuck in seminar with these people for a long time to come. They want somebody who is prepared to do at least part of the work, who doesn't switch off and expect the teacher to push them along, and who is literate enough to get through the course work. They don't mind shy people who can be drawn out, but they jolly well do mind people who don't do their own thinking.

No Spots

i don't want this to offend anyone who ent to oxbridge because that really isn't my intention.But when my DB went to cambridge to do physics there were many of his colleagues (especially amongst those who did well) that were rather odd.'Well balanced' or 'rounded' wouldn't really describe them at all

I feel Sieglinde may be understating the need for verbal skills a bit. Surely, it's hard for Oxbridge admissions tutors to discern cleverness in a student if he is too hesitant to talk. My very shy nephew did not get an Oxford offer last year, while our equally bright but more chatty (and totally unsporty) DD did. She had found some of her interviewers pretty scary, but says that having read a book called Oxbridge Entrance: The Real Rules did help. Actually, all of us ended up reading it, and DH would try and get DD to answer even ordinary questions in the more reflective way described. What DD found toughest, actually, was the written test. This was really about answering short questions with a very short essay each time, and she hadn't done that at school. Still, so far so good, and now we have that nail-biting wait for the A*s...

Extra curriculars seem to matter for some subjects, particularly the most sought after courses.

DD is a first year medical student. When she was in y11 there was a visit to school by an admissions tutor at a medical school - a really hard-bitten cynical type. He was emphatic that he receives more than 2500 applications every year for approx 300 places ( I can't remember the exact number of places but I know there were 1000 more candidates for that particular med school last year). These applications are from students likely to get the very best academic results so the only thing that makes a candidate stand out is a very good personal statement.

He asked them to raise their hands if they played cello. DD's hand went up.

He then said that most of them typically have grade 8 cello - and Duke of Eds - so you need to trump that anyway. But what he was really saying is that he's looking for a candidate who has used extra-curricular experience well and not merely to tick the right boxes.

DD took this on board and wrote a brilliant PS. She emphasised her passion for the subject but she included her extra-curriculars to show that she had the qualities needed for medicine. She didn't apply to that med school though!

First you need the academic track record
then you need a good PS to get an invite for an interview.

It worked. She got three offers and is at her first choice.
And don't forget that the PS is seen by all the unis applied to.

unitarian if an Oxford admissions tutor for medicine tells my DS and me in a private setting that he cares only about finding students who are genuinely excited by science and doesn't care what extra curricular achievements an appliant has and moreover doesn't read the PS in case it prejudices him against an interviewee, I believe him.

Clumsy I disagree. The tutors seem extremely adept at finding a subject to prompt even the most reluctant of students to talk. I think their hardest job at interview may be to find out whether there's sufficient substance behind the chat (particularly well trained independent school chat). Clever people come in all shapes and sizes and Oxford and Cambridge would be very dull for the tutors if their intake didn't reflect that diversity.

Also Clumsy: A*'s for Oxford this year? I thought all 2011 offerees had got off lightly....

Well the other guy must have been lying then

"He was emphatic that he receives more than 2500 applications every year for approx 300 places ( I can't remember the exact number of places but I know there were 1000 more candidates for that particular med school last year)."

I'm reliably informed Southampton medical school received 4800 applications for 246 places this cycle just ended. That's almost 20 times oversubscribed!

Err, he's not likely to be the same admissions tutor from the same college unitarian.... In fact for 2011 entry Oxford had 1490 applications for 152 places. Since your stats don't nearly replicate those I'm guessing your man probably wasn't from Oxford. The point of this thread is specifically about Oxford and Cambridge and their attitude to extra curriculars. It's pretty clear that other universities may take a different view. My DD3 got into a stupidly oversubscribed college for a competitive course having mentioned no extra curriculars but got rejected from Warwick. A good friend, same course, same school, same grades but stellar on the sports front (and mentioned it) got into both. UCL, Durham and Bristol all seemed fine with the lack of mention of extra curriculars too.

I went to Cambridge from a pretty awful comp, without getting all As and without tons of extra curriculars (only very average music, and average debating, no sports). I always thought being extremely chippy in interview about oxbridge attitude to state school kids may have helped.

Fellow Clumsy, DD needs the A* not for Oxford, which asked for AAA, but for the London university her boyfriend is at. Life is never simple with a teenager: although she would "definite, sort of" prefer Oxford, part of her still longs to join him. So, she'll wait with her decision until the results are out. Discussing university choice with someone in the throes of young love can be utterly frustrating, but I suppose that would be another thread...

How does that work with UCAS Clumsyone? I didn't think you could sit on two offers at once. I'm probably being dim.

Dangerous though, following a boyfriend/ girlfriend. The M40 seems pretty well worn anyhow with boyfriends/ girlfriends trekking up and down.

I've been told that they just focus on academics. Also, having an undergraduate standard of knowledge in your subject in the interview isn't as important as keeping going until you're stretched to the limits and responding to the interviewer's prompts. But you should still focus a bit on extra curricular stuff in your PS because you're applying to other unis and they care as much as Oxbridge don't.

If GCSEs aren't great (i.e. smattering of A*s, mostly As and Bs), apply to Cambridge. They interview about 3/4 of applicants, whereas Oxford are really picky from the start.

If you have good GCSE grades do also apply for the best colleges. I know my old college loves state school pupils as they feel they definitely are "clever". Being prepared to argue with people who know more than you, is another useful skill. Most academics at Oxbridge don't want people to "worship at their feet" but to argue their case, but also listen to reason and quickly assimilate new facts.

Should I say in the application for Spgs that I applied to others schools , or not?

My Oxford tutor sat us all down on Day 1 of freshers' week and said, "I don't care about your rowing, your drama clubs, your sports teams or your orchestras. You are here to study and that is what I care about. You will do all the work I set, on time, with no excuses". That pretty much set the tone for the next three years. Oh, and nobody asked me about my string of grade 8s at interview - it was all about the degree subject.

Today 21:22 gohalep

Should I say in the application for Spgs that I applied to others schools , or not?

Gohalep you need to start a new thread not add to a very old one.

For Oxbridge a deep passion and talent for the subject under study is the main thing and is maybe 95% of what matters for most subjects. The personal statement is correspondingly irrelevant, except maybe where a tutor is looking for a clue to explain something, e.g. a weak grade. One big exception is medicine, where I've seen a lot more attention paid to personal qualities, extra-c and relevant vocational stuff. The so-called importance of the statement is otherwise a fantasy invented by schoolteachers, and few tutors gives a damn about sports, DofE blah blah blah. If your applying for MFL - make sure you have read umpteen French books NOT on the A level list. If it's maths aim for the Challenges and if your super-good, Olympiads and so on. Also aim for 4 or 5 A levels at least until after you have got an offer. Take a look at the points profiles of successful applicants - there are many subjects where you can only get to compete by doing 4+. Many people are in denial about that. Recent successful Cambridge maths students had an average of 679 UCAS points, and many kids on the courses usually have 500+ Do the math - that's AAAA. The Complete University Guide has some useful data.

Those Cambridge Maths statistics are a red herring though. Anyone capable of getting the appropriate STEP grade for a successful Cambridge Maths application, would be able to get A in Maths in their sleep; and A in Further Maths with very little additional effort. It is therefore very normal and understandable for such students to be doing those two subjects, plus 2 others. And often there is also a big overlap with at least one of the other subjects, such as Physics or computing.

For other subjects, Cambridge Admissions are very clear that 3 subjects is sufficient. And it is always going to be better to be sitting on a prediction of AAA than AAAA. (In the same way that Oxbridge applicants are in a much stronger position with 9A, than with 6A and 6A.)