Sorry another Priv.Ed. thread. Where do I start?

[FoofffyShmoofffer]

DS is in year 4 in a state primary. I don't love this school but he will have to remain there until the end. We suggested a while ago the local Private school at Secondary level. He knows that there is an exam to pass and that we will also have to prove poor enough ( we are) to be granted a bursary. He is VERY keen.
I have rung the school and we will attend an open day in Sept. We also know that there is a mock exam, if you will, that he can take when he is in year 5 just for the experience.
Is there anything we can do to help him along? Is it advisable to have a tutor in the exam run up? He is intelligent, no doubts, but considering how keen he is what can we do in preparation? Any guidance would be appreciated.

If he's bright then he shouldn't need a tutor. I found the Bond assessment books helpful though. The school web site may have some sample papers on there that you can print off and the mock sounds like a good thing to do. I didn't tutor my son, he's very bright anyway though. We spent 20 mins talking about the sample papers and that was it. The work he's given in the secondary is difficult though, even he finds it hard (which is a first) so using a tutor just to pass the exam will backfire as your son may not be able to cope with the work once he's there. He needs to sit the exam without this help if you see what I mean.

I'm not really a fan of tutoring for entrance exams because if the child can only pass with extensive tutoring they will struggle at the school. I had discussed the possibility of DD entering the exam with her class teacher and if he had thought she wouldn't get through I wouldn't have gone ahead with it, so I would suggest that you discuss this with your son's teacher as well. It also depends on how the teacher thinks the child will perform in the KS2 SATS. If the teacher feels that they could attain level 5 then it is worth doing.

DD sat (and passed) the entrance exam for a local private school, but all I did was download some verbal reasoning papers from the internet. The school in question doesn't give out previous exam papers or example questions, so it involved a bit of guesswork. We applied for a bursary as we have a lowish income, but still didn't get it, so DD won't be going to the private school as we just can't afford it.

Thankyou. Both of your comments regarding the Tutor make alot of sense.
So there's nothing wrong with a few past papers and guidance but entrance has to be entirely on his own merit. I think he is intelligent enough to gain a level 5 at SATS particularly the way his levels have been going.

Bunbaker was your DC ok about this? I hope you don't mind my asking it's just that my DH is on very low salary but then with tax credits it might not look too bad on paper. If we aren't granted a bursary then it's a none option.

I wouldn't worry if he's at level 5.

The problem is that it is not just about ability - it is about exam technique and timing etc and he will be competing with children from your local prep schools who will have been taught these things ad nauseam.

I am not suggesting you should have him tutored in Maths and English but I do think tutoring in how to pass the exam can be useful.

wot bisy said.

Especially if you want a bursary, you want the school to think he's fab. Find out exactly what the exam is and get hold of a tutor so he's got the best chance. Doesn't matter how bright you are if you don't know the techniques and tricks the other kids know.

Bloody hell. Exam technique?? This is going to take some real looking in to. I wasn't aware that a tutor could be hired in exam technique. So glad I asked this. Talk about out of my depth. Despite his intelligence I don't want to set him up for a fall. He is very hard on himself.

Hoh yes. See it as a project. Break it down into steps.

Most schools won't offer a bursary to new pupils unless they get a scholarship. The scholarship itself may not be worth much (10% reduction) but gives eligibility to be considered for a bursary to cover some or all of the remaining fees.

I wouldnt consider letting your Ds sit the entrance exam unless you think he has a good chance of getting good enough marks for a scholarship.

Schools often use Verbal Reasoning or Non-Verbal Reasoning papers as an 'intelligence' test. They are the type used for '11+ exams. Check what your prospective school does. If so, it is very helpful for a child to have had practice in these. You can buy them from Smiths or online.

He will be competing with kids who have done weekly practice papers in English, Maths VR and non-VR since September. Round here (SW London) most parents tutor because it's not just about absolute scores. If you get 75% that's great - unless everyone else got 80%+.

MollieO, that's not true of my son's school which offers lots of bursaries and cut the value of academic scholarships to do so. This is something to check with the school in question. This kind of thing varies enormously from school to school.

My son went to a state primary school (not an outstanding one) and got a scholarship to a very academically selective independent school without having any private tuition. We went through some past papers and 11+ preparation booklets at home with him at home and got him to do a very few timed papers so he was used to the format and the idea. We were, admittedly, very lucky that he turned out to be a natural at exam technique and even now in the sixth form he seems to feel very little in the way of exam nerves. He was a solid Level 5 across the board in Year 6 and there was very little English and Maths he couldn't tackle in the test papers just from what he'd covered at school.

DD was disappointed, but we only had backword about the bursary just before the exam. I gave her the option not to sit it, but she wanted to do it to prove to herself that she could do it. We only looked at verbal reasoning papers so that she could get used to the questions, but she never had any tutoring.

After the exam she said that it was easier than the KS2 practice SATS tests she has in class.

MollieO, sorry to disagree with you but schools are offering more and more bursaries and fewer scholarships. In my experience it isn't necessary to be of scholarship level in order to secure a bursary, but it depends on the schools. The charities commission reports have brought about these changes.

I would suggest that you check with the school about the availability and scale of bursaries. I have seen schools insist on income below £15K to other schools still giving bursaries when income is over £50! Although there is never any guarantee that you will actually get a bursary until all the forms are in and the sums done. It will always be reviewed every year too. DD got a bursary (50% the first year) but is definitely not scholarship level.

It is certainly helpful to have an idea of the types of tests likely to be done, as while they he will be used to maths tests he probably wont have come across the other types of tests. But I see no need or benefit in expensive tutors.

Interesting to know that there are schools that don't link bursaries for new pupils to scholarships. I know scholarship amount has gone down and that the reduction has been added to bursaries. The school we are looking at offers a scholarship of 50% with the possibility of a bursary topping this up to 100%.

It's encouraging to hear about children getting in from state schools without tutoring I must say. Round here (SW London again) it seems that everyone, even kids who have been at private prep schools all their lives, get extra tutoring - which makes me feel it's a very uneven playing field for state school kids trying for the same schools.

It depends on the school and what is expected Vs what your son's experience in education has been. If the school tests in VR and NVR and your son has no experience of these papers, then why would you not prepare him for these papers - possibly though not inevitably with the help of outisde tuition? If the school advises on the entrance levels expected and you are confident he has all the tools to be able to pass the test without outside help, then great. If not, use a tutor.

When my dd was in the same position, there were gaps in her knowledge Vs what was listed in the guidance notes of what she would be tested on. She just hadn't yet learned what was required. So we used a tutor, for about 6-8 sessions to fill in that gap. I would have been setting her up for failure if she'd walked in not having been prepared for everything the school required.

You see this is where I feel very out of my depth. I was under the impression that the scholarship and the bursary were exclusive of each other. Had no idea the scholarship made up a percentage. When we attend the open day I am fully aware I will make a complete twit out of myself.
I would speak to DSs teacher but he has only been with them 5 weeks and doesn't know them very well ( I said I didn't love this school, high teaching staff turnover for one reason).
I will have to take this in stages as Hully said.

leeks, yes that post makes alot of sense to me.

Exam technique is pretty much common sense and working to time limits. Things like always read the question carefully so you are sure you understand what it's asking, keep an eye on the clock and move on to the next question if one is taking too long, aim to leave 5 minutes + at the end to check your answers.

Have just looked on the school website. They have listed GL assessment 11+ practise papers for VR, NVR and Mathematical R as ideal practise and have listed titles for past English comprehension. It's a starting point.
Apparently you are eligible for the full bursary if your income is less than £18,346. If this includes tax credits then we won't be eligible by a whisker.

The promise of bursaries that will be reviewed every year is a tenuous one. I personally wouldn't put my eggs into that basket as MN is full of stories about kids who get in on a tiny bursary and the parents can't take it up. Cue gutted kids..

Go and see the bursars of the schools you fancy.

Be frank about your situation.

They will tell you exactly what's what. Most schools have differng policies. DS's school only offer bursaries to children already within the school who have fallen on hard times. Scholarships are for 10-15% of fees and are for music, sport and academics individually.
DD's school offers various bursaries, including one for the whole fees, offered to the girl who the bursar feels will 'most benefit.'
There are also various scholarships worth 10-50% of fees including academic, sport, music, drama and an all rounder one.

It seems to me there is no point start the whole malarky of prepping for tests etc if you won't get the funding you need. Horses and carts etc.

Who needs that kind of stress?

FoofffyShmoofffer you say you get full bursary if your income is less than £18,346. There is usually then a sliding scale so if you miss that by a whisker (as you say) you may still be eligible for say 95% or whatever. Some schools publish these figures and others don't. Also you need to find out exactly what is meant by income. Is it gross income or some schools make allowances for eg mortgage interest, tax & national insurance etc etc.

If this is a school that you think would suit your ds then I suggest going for it but make sure your ds understands that it isn't a certainty (lots of kids don't get through the test), and when you get the results & figures you can then be in a position to do the sums. Don't forget that there are a lot of 'extras' that are not usually covered by the bursary such as uniform, trips, etc. Some schools also charge for examination entries.

I do understand that many parents go down the road of extra tution for entrance exams, but if he's on track to gain Level 5's he may not need the extra tution and could do just as well with you working with him doing practise papers. I did this with DS - we worked on the Bond and Letts papers (Maths/English/NVR)from Smiths and did timed tests up to the date of the entrance exam, sometimes 2 or 3 a day as we got closer to the exam date. We did slightly more work on the NVR as this an area that isn't covered at his school.

He is at a state primary (year 6), and not the best one in our area by a long stretch. He passed the exam for an independent - luckily he has also been awarded a full bursary. I was told that he had done well and his marks were in the top 5% and this along with my circumstances helped with the bursary, although it does state on the school website that even if parents meet all the criteria for a bursary they won't necessarily receive one - so we must have been super lucky.

However, I don't know if this particular school links the scholarship and bursary awards as the info on the website is a bit lacking.

FS - You can only do your best for your DS and help him as much as you can - all parents have different views on outside tutoring and only you know if your DS will benefit from additional tution.