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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

So, Who's appealing for state grammar?....care to hold hands?

20 replies

Ingles2 · 11/03/2011 19:56

well what a couple of weeks it's been... this is the first time I've been able to post about this since 1st March..
Ds is the only one out of his friends to not get the boys grammar.... we live further out in a village and for the 1st time ever this grammar is over subscribed...
So here we are getting ready to appeal,... have no idea what we're doing and ds is very low...
Really could do with some support and advice.

OP posts:
rainbowinthesky · 11/03/2011 20:08

WHat grounds have you got for appeal?

Ingles2 · 11/03/2011 21:58

hi rainbow...well they're not brilliant. we're going on the social...he is very shy, very geeky. He will struggle at the humungous comp with no friends.
He scored highly in the kent test, so we're pushing his academic, his sport and we're all saying he should be in a smaller school with his mates... thankfully all his reports say he's very quiet and the head has written a fantastic letter saying the same. Can only hope that's enough.

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Greenshadow · 11/03/2011 23:24

Not quite the answer you were after, but we were in a similar situation this time last year.

DS3 was the only one of his friends not to pass the 11+. Not only that, but both his older brothers were at the local grammar. He was very upset and really didn't want to go to the local comp (we were more than happy for him to go there as would suit him far more). Where we are there is virtually no chance of getting in to the grammar if you fail the test, although we used to live in East Kent and appreciate that it is much more common there.

For what it's worth, DS started reluctantly at the comp in Sept, not knowing anyone and has settled in very quickly.

Good luck with your appeal.

Ingles2 · 12/03/2011 18:56

Thanks greenshadow, I know you're right... ds2 will be going to the comp and it is an excellent school.
Ds1 will cope if he has to go there, but it won't be easy for him. We made a school move when he was going into yr 4,(for his brother's benefit SN) and it took him a whole year to make friends and overcome his shyness. He still doesn't speak in class, so the thought of 60 in a class doing this L2L thing is giving him sleepless nights..

OP posts:
mumslife · 15/03/2011 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thenevernever · 15/03/2011 20:37

Ingles there's lots of good advice on appeals on the elevenplusexams forum.
Hope it all goes well for you and your ds.

prh47bridge · 15/03/2011 23:51

You'll get plenty of good advice here too!

Ingles, has your son seen anyone about his shyness? Any independent opinions will help you. You should also look for anything this school has which the comprehensive doesn't. For example, if your son is particularly good at sport and the grammar will provide more opportunities, that is worth mentioning. For sport, substitute foreign languages or any other subject your son is particularly good at.

The other part of preparing for an appeal is to see if you can weaken the case to refuse admission. Have they ever been over the admission number before? If so, that would indicate that going over the number again may not cause too many problems. Have they recently added any new buildings? If so, has the admission number changed to reflect the additional capacity? Anything you can find which indicates that an additional pupil won't actually be a problem for the school will help.

When you receive the case to refuse admission you read it carefully and see if there are any weaknesses you can use. Again, there is advice on here to help with that.

Good luck.

mumslife · 16/03/2011 08:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mamatomany · 16/03/2011 09:46

I have a friend who is on the local appeals panel she said to focus on/think about why the child needs to go to the school you want not why they shouldn't go to the one you've been allocated.

joencaitlinsmum · 16/03/2011 12:43

Ds1 will cope if he has to go there, but it won't be easy for him. We made a school move when he was going into yr 4,(for his brother's benefit SN) and it took him a whole year to make friends and overcome his shyness. He still doesn't speak in class, so the thought of 60 in a class doing this L2L thing is giving him sleepless nights..

Use this evidence in your appeal as its very relevant!!

curlymama · 16/03/2011 19:40

I'm appealing for state grammar too, on both non qualification and over subscription, so I'm happy to do some hand holding!

It has completely taken over my entire brain for the last couple of weeks!

I'm guessing your ds passed the 11+, he just didn't get a place because it was oversubscribed?

Agree with what the others have said about focussing on reasons why your ds needs to go to that school, rather than not go to the comp. Can you find anything in the school's prospectus that you can quote that would particularly suit your ds. Clubs or anything that they provide that would help him socialise. Also, find out how many children there are in the current y7 and year 8. If there are more than the number they have offered places to this year, you can argue that point quite well.

Ingles2 · 17/03/2011 13:51

Hi everyone.. thanks for your support and messages
Things have moved on sightly in that we've hired an appeal advisor.
The school we want is a community school, which means we'll be appealing against the council...so we've got someone to help with the technical admissions stuff which is a bit of a relief.
joencaitlinsmum we thought that too...but have been advised against mentioning ds2 or school move. Ds2 will be going to the comp, therefore we don't want to suggest to the panel the boys will be better off together iyswim.
We are going to push his shyness, the school has made a big deal of this in its prospectus and also push his sport. He plays football, rugby and cricket at competitive level,...the grammar has county league teams which could really bring him on.
prh47bridge the advisor suggested an Ed Psych... tbh we haven't really got the money to pay and also I really don't want to suggest to ds1 that there is any problem with him, or he has done anything wrong at all. He is totally blaming himself even though it's absolutely not his fault, but ours for living too far away (this year anyway)
I'm feeling a little bit worried about this decision,..but dh also believes its the right one too so I have to hope we have enough ammunition.
hi curlymama sorry to hear you are in this position too. Are you in Kent as well?
Ds1 passed the 11+ so we're just oversub,. (just! she says Grin )
How are things going with you? and how is your dc?

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 17/03/2011 14:49

I'm not a fan of appeal advisors, I'm afraid. Many of them offer very little value for money. I'm not at all sure why your advisor has suggested an Ed Psych. Is he is hoping to put together a case for special medical needs?

As for advising you against mentioning DS2 and the school move, I really don't understand that. It helps to show that your son finds it much harder to make friends than other children of his own age.

You will, of course, get plenty of help here with the technical admissions stuff. Admission and Panelmember both sit on appeals panels. I also know the admissions process and the relevant regulations inside out.

curlymama · 17/03/2011 16:26

No we're not in Kent, don't want to out myself by saying where we are though!

DS is fine about going to the comp, and tbh, I won't be too put out if he goes there. It's a very good school, I just don't think it will suit him as well as the GS. He has aspergers, and I think the GS will be better for him in terms of the social side of things.

prh47brige, now you have admitted you know the process, what can you tell us!?

Grin

I'm wondering what sort of questions the panel are likely to ask at the hearing, and what type of appeals tend to be most successful? I feel like we have a strong case, but it's so hard to know!

prh47bridge · 17/03/2011 17:22

What do you want to know? No bribes needed! Smile

Appeal panels vary widely in the questions they ask. It is very difficult to predict. There are certain things they shouldn't ask, though. For example, they shouldn't ask why you didn't apply to school X or why you made school Y your second choice. They should concentrate on testing the strength of your case. Given what you have said I would expect some questions about your son's aspergers and how it affects him in daily life. The admission authority's representative may also ask you some questions.

I would have to say that you are most likely to be successful if you can show that a mistake has been made and your son should have been admitted. That will only fail if lots of mistakes have been made and the school couldn't cope with all of them.

Assuming no mistake has been made, a case with independent evidence from an expert showing that your child will suffer if he doesn't go to the GS is likely to be pretty strong. The expert's report needs to say "I have examined curlymama's son and in my opinion..." or similar, NOT "curlymama tells me...". The latter tells the panel that the expert is simply repeating what you have told him, so they will simply discount the expert's evidence. You have to be aware, however, that even if you have a very strong case, sometimes the case to refuse admission is so overwhelming that you won't succeed.

It is always difficult to predict the result of an appeal where the panel has to balance the prejudice to the child of not being admitted against the prejudice to the school of having another pupil. Different panels will arrive at different conclusions given the same facts. Sometimes a panel will admit a child even when the rules say they shouldn't. And sometimes a panel will refuse to admit a child even when the case to admit seems to be overwhelming.

Good luck and feel free to ask anything you want about admissions and/or appeals.

mollymole · 17/03/2011 18:24

it may well be worth finding out, where all the other children come from - it was our experience that our son actually lived nearer to the school than some others in different areas & a fair few of them had to pass our road end to get there - one telephone call from our solicitor and he had a place

curlymama · 17/03/2011 19:25

prh47bridge, thanks so much!

Would you mind if I PM'd you in the morning please? There's some stuff to tell about our case that I'd rather not post on here publicly, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. I really have no idea if our circumstances will be enough to win. They didn't make a mistake that mean he should be admitted, but a mistake was made that affected his mark. Be warned though, it could be long! Smile

I guess I should probably check that you don't work in my area first as well!

Ingles2 · 17/03/2011 20:47

hello...
I think we're in safe hands prh47bridge This appeal advisor comes very highly recommended, is very well respected in the area, and said exactly the same to us as you posted at 17.22 Grin
He suggested an Ed Psych because it isn't actually as simple as Ds1 is shy... he has self esteem issues and displays OCD, and as you said, expert evidence is a very strong case... I just have to balance this with ds1 emotional state.
I'm still not sure about mentioning the school move and ds2. I think AA thought it muddied quite a clear cut case and risked creating more problems. But he has made it clear that ultimately, we decide.
He also said every panel will be different so you just never know.
I have to say though, this is giving me sleepless nights... ds1 is so unhappy and lost.
I'm hoping for a miracle and we get in on the waiting list (we won't, we're about 10th)

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 17/03/2011 21:38

Curlymama - I'm always happy to respond to PMs.

Ingles2 - I'm glad your adviser agrees with me! That is a good sign. Grin

I see what he is thinking when he talks about muddying the case. If you have a good case it helps to concentrate on that rather than bring in extraneous factors. However, if the school move and DS2 provide additional evidence of your son's issues it would, in my view, be worth using it. But make sure you concentrate on the bits that illustrate your son's problems rather than trying to tell the full story. The panel need to understand why you are telling them about this.

And I wouldn't give up hope on the waiting list either. I've known people get in from lower positions than that, but I've no idea how often that happens at this particular school obviously.

curlymama · 18/03/2011 12:33

Thanks prh, I've pm'd you!

Ingles, 10th on the waiting list is really not a bad place to be. I'm sure you know, but the lists do move quite a lot what with children taking up offers from private schools instead. Hopefully you might get a place through the list instead of having to continue too long with this appeal stress!

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