Any linguists/ language teachers (english & MFL) with ideas on important convo with ds SMT & langauge teacher re individual learning plan for native speakers?

[ErnestTheBavarian]

Hi, I'd be grateful for any suggestions here. A bit of background.

We live in Germany, we are English & speak only english at home. Ds (11) is bilingual (G/E) and attends the local school, which is a language specialist school; after year 10 many of the lessons are bilingual (G/E) so the school has a big interest in languages.

Anyway, since he started in September, we have been concerned that his English lessons are largely a waste of time and a wasted opportunity. If he were an english child in an english school, he would have several english lessons a week. The german kids in the german school obviously have several german lessosn a week.

He is following the same english lessons as all the german kids, so obviously it's way below his ability - totally off the radar. Some of it is useful, ie learning the specific grammar rules, but when it comes to the class and homework, he is doing very basic stuff like writing the correct vocab. word in the gap. It turns out his teacher encourages him to just bring a book to read in class when it's too boring.

At the parents evening, when I queried this, the teacher's suggestion was to deregister him altogether from English! Obviously, I am totally against this. While he can speak and read totally fluently, his written skills need a lot of work.
This issue will also affect my ds2 from September and ds3 in a couple of years.

Ds1 English teacher just called. She's set up a meeting with me, her and the Senior Manager to discuss ds1 English. I obviously want to be as constructive as possible - they seem open to listening to me, and perhaps acting on it. Next year ds2 will go there (I assume) and hopefully in 3 years ds3, and I'm sure they won't be the only English speaking kids in the school, so I'm hoping to propose a policy for native speakers. English is a very significant part of the school, so I think they should have to resources etc and they def. seem to be cooperative. So all good. MY Q is, what do I say!!!!!

My gut feeling is that ds 1 should on the whole follow the main curriculum that all the other pupils do (so here no more work for the teacher). He also is learning grammar points and rules, rather than just 'knowing' the answer iyswim. But when it comes to applying the knowledge, I don't think he should be putting the right verb into the gap, that's a waste of time, or copying out reams of vocab, again, a waste. My thoughts are he should apply the knowledge in a different way, eg use the vocab/grammar rule learnt in the form of a longer piece of writing, a letter, a paragraph on what he did at the weekend, that sort of thing.His written work is the main skill are he needs to work on. Is this enough, or does anyone have any different or better ideas?

Are there any books or resources I could recommend? I think if it doesn't impact on the class, the curriculum or the teacher too much, they are more likely to give it a whirl. What do you think?

Thanks for taking the time to read - it's rather long, sorry!

Ernest I'm not a language teacher but thought that I would post froma parent's perspective.

We lived in the Netherlands for around 5 years and DCs attended the local primary school. As a result DD1 became bilingual in English & Dutch. The school she was at then and the seconadary school she would have attended werent specialist language schools but did teach English as a foreign language.

DD1 found the English lessons to be too simple and sometimes were in fact incorrect. The school didnt recognise that some of its pupils actually spoke better English than their teachers.

Since that time we have moved back to the UK. DD1 is keeping up her Dutch through recognised qualifications, GCSE, AS and very soon A2.

Is this an option for your DCs? There are many external courses offering recognised UK qualifications which your DCs could follow independantly of the school. This would give them a qualification recognised in the UK. In parallel your DCs could undertake the 'English as a foreign language' in their school.

I think you have to trust the school and the teachers.
I'm bilingual eng/span and I'm also a teacher. I went to an english school and only did 1 hour of spanish per week but my mother is spanish so that's all I spoke at home.

It wasn't until I started my GCSE (o levels then!) in spanish that i actually got to grips with the written language...that was at 14.
I then did it at A level and as part of my uni course. I can honestly say that my spanish and english are equal although for pleasure I do prefer to read english books.

Your child is not learning english in the same way as the german kids. He has aquired the language, not learnt it . I think maybe you could discuss with his teachers ways in which to stretch him.

I am meeting with the school to discuss ways of stretching him. I can't just leave it to the school, I can't trust the school because at present they are not teaching him, merely encouraging him to read a book ( in German) during lesson time - their suggestion was for him to not have any lessons at all!

But clearly they are prepared to discuss, so I wanted ideas on what to suggest to them. I've never taught English so I don't really know what best to suggest.

English kids in England have acquired rather than learnt the language but they still need English lessons. Ds struggles with writing, clearly an area he needs to develop. I don't want him to be semi literate in his mother tongue!

Gnome, interesting idea, but he'd need to be taught in order to sit exams, and getting him taught appears to be the main problem. Am also not sure how or where he could sit other external exams. I think this is a good idea worth looking into later, but right now he's 11 and needs to learn something.

Ernest I think that a number of the extension colleges provide home study materials. This wasnt available for us for Dutch (a true minority language) but is for English. Your DCs wouldnt necessarily need to look at exams yet but they could work through the materials.

Alternatively, how about looking at Letts materials, should be available via Amazon.

You may find that the school cant help because for them English is the foreign language. This was certainly our problem, the school didnt recognise that DD1 was actually completely fluent in English because she only spoke Dutch at school and had a Rotterdam rather than English accent.

If you want your child to be reading and writing like an english kid in an english school, then you'll have to send him to a school that teaches everything in english, ie to a school in England or to an international school.

You can't expect a school in another country to teach your child so that he can be competent in your mother tongue. How much help would a german child get here with his german? I think you're expectations are unrealistic. Maybe you should look into tutoring

Sheesh. I only asked if anyone had any ideas for extension work I could discuss with the school.

I don't understand your negativity tbh. The teachers themselves invited me to this meeting to discuss ways to help ds. The school themselves seem to be open to my ideas hence the meeting. I already discussed with the english teacher, her initial reaction was to de register him, I said I didn't want that. She has come back to me with an appointment together with senior manager. So she has suggested this meeting. And clearly the senior manager is also interested. I expect she is very busy but has decided to make the time to meet with me, at the english teacher's suggestion.

I think it were another school maybe I wouldn't expect so much, but it is a bilingual school in german & english. So, doesn't seem to make much sense to me for him to sit on his arse and not learn much.

Given the fact that it's an english language specialist school, which does offer bilingual education, and they are open to discussing it with me and want to hear my ideas, I didn't think I was unreasonable in trying to flesh out some ideas to discuss with them.

Frankly if in England a german kid went to an english/ german bilingual school, I would expect them to help him with his german. And if the teachers asked for ideas, I don't see what's unreasonable to, erm discuss ideas.

An international school (which my ds did attend for 1 year) would indeed help with his english but would be extremely detrimental to his german btw.

And why, as a parent, should I not be able to expect his teacher to try and meet his individual needs? If your ds was great at maths would you be happy to be festering away doing work far too easy for him, or would you want and expect his maths teacher to at least do some sort of extension work with him?

I agree with you, ErnestTheBavarian, and think the open attitude that the school is showing should be exploited all you can.

Re materials, maybe ask on the Home Schooling board, or the Language and Bilingual board for specific resources. Could you look at an English textbook for his age group and see what sort of things he would be learning in UK? The idea of writing a paragraph is all well and good, but he will need help to improve it, eg thinking about structure, wide ranging vocabulary etc.

I'm not at your stage yet, as my ds is only 1yo, but I hope in the future to have a good relationship with his school on this matter.

Ernest, I don't know why you have had such a hard time here.

I didn't go to a bilingual school, but even so, by the age of 11 I was doing more in my foreign language classes than you are describing here.

if all I had done, once I had learnt the grammar, was to fill in gaps in sentences then fluency and proficiency in another language would not have been achieved.

I think the things you are suggesting re: writing a paragraph to extend his ideas, and practise fluency are good.

it can be hard to keep up with this kind of extension work - it can go stale quickly.

would suggesting writing a weekly/fortnightly/whatever newsletter keep his interest? writing about his weekend every week will soon become boring for him, and it would be easy for him to end up just as bored because he was using the same phrases each time.

many, many years ago when I was learning languages at school, we had the old horrors of things like dictation to grapple with - would this be a possibility? It certainly shows up the difference between aural/oral fluency and written fluency, ime.

I have no idea if things are even remotely the same, but I think the kind of exercises you are wanting are the type that were used in eg Common Entrance exams in the UK in the 80s (well, I certainly had to do them, anyway!) - so, dictation, picture composition (being given a little cartoon strip, and having to write say 150 words on it) etc. maybe looking up some of the old examples of these would help you get your thoughts together?

Actually, thinking more about the resources, he could just use the writing sections from higher level EFL textbooks. e.g. Cambridge First Certificate, Cambridge Advanced Certificate. Lots of editorials publish books to prepare students for these exams.

The First Certificate is appropriate for younger teens and writing tasks include letters, stories, reports, articles, proposals, reviews. The school would probably have these books already, and all they would need to do is photocopy the relevant double paged spread. The book usually points out good ways to structure teh answer and gives ideas for the less inspired! And the teacher will be used to marking such work as well.

thanks. a text book of some sort would be perfect. I had a quick look last time I was in UK but didn't see anything remotely suitable. I agree re things getting stale.

I could maybe do dictations with him at home, good idea. I really want the focus to be on not giving too much extra burden to the teachers, as I think they will be more open if it doesn't double their workload!

Ernest - my apologies if my comments about the school not necessarily being able to help so much offended. I hadnt realised that the school was actually bilingual. My experience was a Dutch school in a very international district.

Here's a link to the type of book I was meaning when I mentioned Letts type books:

study guide

I think that your DS will be coming into KS3.

gnome, they didn't at all. I just found the previous post from ATCW really negative and strangely confrontational.
I appreciate your help. Is KS3 an age or an ability guide? Age right, till about 14 then it's KS4? (Guy in the shop told me it's ability but I wasn't sure that was right).
Thanks for link. WIsh it was one of the books Amazon let you peek inside of!

Placemarking for later (on phone and have lots to say!)

I've used those books ernest - ds was in Year 6 in UK and I got some to work with at home as he'd been in school in Germany before that. They are good because they show you the curriculum they would be doing in UK.

An example in one there was a section on Persuasive writing, writing reports and writing investigation. There was alot more grammar than I ever did back in the old days. I don't think the school would be able to work with them but for at home it would keep him up to a decent 'native speaker' level.

If the school isn't able to help much you could definately use those books at home and slowly work through them until your ds can start one of the online/distance learning GCSE courses. He could sit a German GCSE while he's at it too!

Thanks. I guess if I were to buy a book to give to the school (if they didn't have something similar already anyway) is a book that just gave loads of varied written tasks? The grammar he will cover in great depth in due course. His vocab is broad and well developed anyway as he is an avid reader.

So, does anyone know of such a book that is jam packed with different writing tasks.

Or am I just completely wrong?

Ad, did you sit down and do an official formal lesson with your dc or just every now and then sit down with them?

Ernest I am pretty sure that Key Stages are age determined. If you search in amazon under study books and the appropriate key stage I am sure that you will find books which you can take a peek at.

My DS is around your DS's age. Does your DS read at home in English? This is about the age that my DS discovered Harry Potter. The spoken word books were a great intro (excellently read by Stephen Fry so no sloppy grammer!). My DS listened to the books and then read them. Across the period of around 18 months my DS went from being a complete non-reader (he's mildly dyslexic) to having devoured the complete set.

I think that paying attention to the grammer of English is a good idea as they are totally different as you will know.

Any road up succes (as the Dutch would say). We moved back to the UK a few years ago now but DD1 would move back out again at the drop of a hat. Keeping the bilingularity (a new word I think) has helped with her acquiring French and German with relative ease.

Hi Ernest,

I am sort of in the same situation. My DS is also bilingual.
I am also an English teacher.

From the teacher's perspective, it would be a lot of extra work.
Is it possible for your DS to learn an additional language?

[[http://learnenglishkids.britishcouncil.org/en/
You can try this website for ideas]]

How about some creative writing?

From a parent's perspective, when my DS is old enough,I would prefer if he attended another language class as I think it is a very good opportunity.

HTH

They are wok books so I think full of exercises. We used this type of thing when we moved back to the UK and needed to get everyone up to speed prior to joining English school.

don't- he'll be learning latin from September

Marking place. Same situation here.

I find my daughter's bilingulism fascinating. She is 15 now and despite having been back in the UK for a few years says she still dreams in Dutch if that is the language for the context of the dream.

I do think that learning different languages is enormously beneficial if the child has the aptitude.

Having moved backwards and forwards between two countries, the languages themselves were never a problem. I dont think that there is a 'right' answer. There are the monolinguists (or British as they are known in the rest of the world) who think that you can only really learn one language. I dont agree with this view, people living on the borders of different countries often speak many languages without great effort.

Update, the meeting went really well, far exceeded my expectations.

I had focussed on helping make his English lessons more relevant, but the senior teacher, school director took it much further. We looked at ways of helping with the English, my agenda, but then broadened it. She asked me & the English teacher how he was in other subjects and is looking to reducing his english and maths lessons (he's also v. good at maths) and introducing french as well as latin next year, also considered skipping a year and looking into all sorts of other ways to challenge him as he's not being stretched that much across the board. I was really impressed she picked up on this and suggested a host of possibilites to stretch him, not just in English, but across the board.

Now I just need to find the elusive english book, or possibly even better, a good website where I can print out a variety of activities for him, both 5 minute lists through to longer written activities that he'd need to plan out etc. Anyone know a good web site with such sheets I can print out?

wow, that sounds great! the school sound very on the ball on this (this has NOT been my experience in Italy at all).
What English friends of mine have done here in a similar situation is to discount the English being taught in school entirely (they are frequently taught wrongly anyway) and set up private lessons outside school. Some of these children are working their way through the Trinity exams (oral exams), outside school, with a private (native speaker) teacher, as something to motivate them.

I'm not sure how the levels equate, but you could maybe try with something like this?

www.amazon.co.uk/KS3-English-Workbook-Including-Answers/dp/1847622585

Would correcting exercises at home with him be a possibility?

Sounds very positive, hope ds1 is also pleased! That's good old Bavaria for you!

Ernest:

Some good EFL websites are:
www.british.council.org (it's hooooooge)
www.english-to-go.com (not free, but there are some free resources
www.onestopenglish.com (another one which isn't free, but lots of sample freebies)
If you're looking for books, then you need to be looking at advanced level stuff for your son, as he's obviously a native speaker, so as such, an ELT type book would serve not much purpose.
If you google CAE or CPE materials you'll find a plethora of books and websites with related advanced grammar, vocabulary and use of English stuff. (I have been told it's possible to download books free (and illegally) from a website called scribd.com.)

I think your son's school sounds very forward thinking and positive in all of this. My dd at the moment is only 7 and her English teacher has already spoken to me about the fact that she is bored in class, but at the moment, as I left off doing much English reading/writing with her, I figure for the time being she can perfect that.