listening to the radio abt Oxford admissions made me wonder what gives kids the best chance of getting in?

[hatwoman]

I didn't catch the whole program but what I did hear was interesting. lots of talk about looking for kids with potential, with ability to probe, and spotting the ones who've been coached but aren't actually up to it. We all know that, whatever the reasons, private schools do better at getting kids in, but does anyone know what impact the educational level of parents has? I've always argued the impact is considerable, in general terms, but just wondered how significant people think it is is for the specifics of Oxford or Cambridge or other top universities.

I met someone from Eton who didn't get into Oxford, went to Durham instead. He would have said it was because he just wasn't bright enough or motivated enough for Oxford.

Well, thing is that most Oxford courses are completely punishing if you aren't BOTH clever and fantically keen. Squeezedatbothends, congratulations to your son, and to you, too. He sounds excellent.

squeezed that sounds like fabulous preparation.

I loath it when people desribe such things as over coaching or spoonfeeding as if good prep were a terrible thing.

My niece and nephew both applied for oxford.

He is an extremly bright, hard-working lad educated at a comprehensive school with good teachers but mixed ability classes so teachers are having to teach to the majority with the brightest having to work independently to get the highest grades. He is a lovely boy but has had to hide his light under a bushel to some extent to avoid the teasing (I can't say it was enough to be bullying) so is fairly quiet at arguing his point

She is fairly bright, but has been at selective independent schools since the age of four where less able children are weeded out at each stage. The classes are aimed at A/A* grades, there is plenty of oxbridge/rg preparation lots of interview practice and a general atmosphere of hard work and success. There is also a history of oxbridge entrance at the school.

Both sets of parents are supportive and want academic success but the only difference is the cash and knowing both youngsters well he is by far the better candidate

Independent (and some state) schools' help with admissions to excellent universities goes beyond getting the top A level grades. It's about knowing exactly what the various admissions tutors are looking for NOW and knowing when it's a waste of a choice to even apply.

For example, you can't study medicine at Birmingham without a minimum of 9 A at GCSE it doesn't matter if you're predicted 5 x A grades at A level. Lots of applicants waste a choice on Birmingham when they have too few As at GCSE (it doesn't matter that they are predicted 5 x A at A level) I'd bet a substantial amount of money that the applicants making that mistake are not from selective independent schools. To study at UCL you need to have a GCSE in a MFL.

Independent Schools (in general) are very good at:

1. Making sure the pupil gets the grades in the right subjects and don't rule things out with their subject choices when they haven't decided what they want to do in life/at university

2. Making sure the applicant has satisfied both the academic and non-academic requirements for admission to the programme for which they're applying on their UCAS form (tailored PS, work experience, extra curricular, attendance at various lectures and events, invitation of various speakers into school etc)

I'm not sure having bright parents is enough.

I agree Swedes.
And a good place to start would be to banish the pretense that all qualifications are equal.

I nearly fell off my perch when I friend's DD told me her A level choices.
She is a very bright capable girl. But her choices have completely limited what will happen next.

The message I got was that too many state schools are found wanting in preparing their candidates properly ( to the extent of not even suggesting they apply in some cases).

Swedes is correct in describing the considered route that good independent schools will use. They are, after all, a business with paying customers to satisfy.Many students at top independent schools are working at undergraduate level by the time they leave. That didn't happen overnight or by chance - it was built into the curriculum from their first day at the school.

Unfortunately many of the state schools do not have the resources for preparing candidates if only a handful are likely to apply for oxbridge or medicine or even a russell group.
The local independents (and state grammars) have recently been boasting about getting a couple of dozen offers each for oxbridge with several more on the waiting list.

Swedes - very interssting re the up to date knowledge on B'ham/UCL etc admissions crtieria. So... not a black art, or the old boys' network...

Maybe rather than bright parents you need ones who are happy using the internet.

The info is out there if you look for it, DD2 didn't apply for Maths at Durham because on the website they said they placed a lot of emphasis on the maths and further maths module scores that had already been achieved (they requested that this information should be included in the personal statement). As DD2 had a dodgy further maths module she decided not to apply and use her choice on a different competitive university that put more emphasis on the overall AS grade achieved.

After the applications had gone in DD2 found out that a girl in her Maths class with lower and more inconsistent module scores had applied to Durham. She didn't get in and could have avoided a wasted choice by actually checking the website properly.

Just heard it - it's a subject that merits more weight than 30 minutes I think.

I met with an Admissions Tutor at an Oxford college in November re DD1 and he agreed with some of threads that came out of this programme though - he said almost everyone that applies is bright and successful in exam terms, everyone interviewed is likely to be 'highly' intelligent, but very few are 'inspiring'.

He said they search for those that are truly passionate about theie learning and who would want to add something to the subject and the college.

He encouraged DD1 to be 'brave' in both the exma and the interview. So many have the straight A*'s, that you need to make your mark in a different way.

PS I did a highly unpopular entrance paper many years ago - worked for me as the relevant Tutor assumed I'd be interested in his subject when seemingly no-one else was! I imagine that game might still work even now.

agree with webwiz - everything swedes says makes an awful lot of sense - but a clued up parent, (working together with their dc) could, if they had the time, provide a lot of that. I do think just realising that it's worth doing the research, that it's worth thinking about all this even at the stage of chosing GCSEs , is a big advantage.

the challenge, if you're doing that as a parent, when the school isn't, is to avoid turning into pushy helicopter parent from hell...

Litchick - yes I agree its "were looking for that spark".

Its the ability to think beyond the rote learning out of a book by an intelligent but really not very brilliant student. Being able to apply what you know to a new situation without missing a beat in an interview is the key test.

Its a 'you know it when you see it' thing. Although predicted A level and how you did in the STEP is obviously a precursor indicator an experienced interviewer will spot an outstanding student at an interview.

Clued up parents, a good education and encouragement and personal motivation all matter but you cant make someone exceptionally intelligent if they arent.

Hatwoman - Agree . Time is important but sadly it's not just about time, it's about a body of knowledge built up over the past two or three application cycles. Some of the information isn't available in the admissions information.

For example, Birmingham for Medicine website currently says this about its prospective applicants:

"We interview the best applicants. In practice this has meant that, for the past three years, only those candidates with AAA A Level predictions and at least 7 A* grades at GCSE, have been selected for interview. However, because of the competition, meeting these requirements does not guarantee that you will receive the offer of an interview."

But in reality NOBODY with fewer than 9 A at GCSE has been offered a place in the current cycle. Candidates with only 8A have been summarily rejected and lots with 8A* have been rejected without interview too.

How many state schools even allow their pupils to sit more than 8 GCSEs? My sons' independent school now make ALL their pupils sit a minimum of 10 GCSEs (MFL compulsory) as there are increasing numbers of undergraduate progs for which a large number of A* at GCSE is absolutely necessary. They are always ahead of the curve of any move by any of the universities.

In order to do it yourself effectively, it's pretty much a full-time project from about the age of 14. Perhaps it's better to pay the fees and be a bit more of a slacker parent rather than an academic manager/agent.

EDIT: Candidates with only 8A have been summarily rejected and lots with 9A** have been rejected without interview too.

swedes - that kind of thing is useful to know - not for the details of Birmingham and that course but to know that it's really worth digging.

The devil is, as ever, in the detail. And said detail is not always readily available.

For example, to study law at Cambridge, the current requirements on line are AAA with the A being in a perferred subject.

The reality is however, that many of the colleges will only accept all three A levels being in a perfered subject.

Also the level of competition means that for some colleges you will need at least two A*s.
An application to those colleges without those predictions is wasted.

A mother being her child's academic driving force and mentor rarely ends well for the child or the mother.

Well, some of us have no choice. Should I just let my dcs steer their own course with a bit of (as you have said, often wrong) advice from the school, or bone up on as much information as possible so that they are on an equal footing with more privileged children?

thanks for that gramercy. like I said below I'm aware that my school choices may put dds at a disadvantage compared with children like swedes' who are at an independent. I don't think that compensating for a bit of careers advice is either bad, or means turning into my children's "academic driving force" or mentor. (I'm not even sure what that means. )

IME they look for evidence of reading around your subject. Being brilliant at the A level syllabus doesn't really cut it.

I don't think it does put them at a disadvantage though Hatwoman. It's not rocket science to work out what the top universities want in terms of grades and other CV suggestions of "spark". A clued-up child, or a child with clued-up parents, can go through a state system and end up with the right qualifications. And at that point, they're a desirable candidate. Many of the tutors at top universities like state school candidates. It looks good for their stats.

And, for all the blather about a higher proportion of private school children getting into the top universities, it's still the case that a similar proportion of those who apply from state schools and those who apply from private schools are accepted at Oxbridge. Once a child gets as far as applying, their chances of success are siimlar.

Also, all this business of needing at least 134 GCSEs or noone will look at you; I've just been on the Winchester College website and it says students normally take 8-10 GCSEs. So I don't think it does them too much harm seeing as they get more people into Oxbridge than anywhere.

grammercy - Yes, I'm sorry. I didn't intend to be discouraging. You have to understand I'm trying to justify my own course of action in opting to pay others to do what I perhaps could/should have done myself.

Hatwoman - but we aren't talking about 'a bit of careers advice', we're talking about getting children into "Oxford or Cambridge or other top universities" as per your OP.

as to what RG universities are looking for

This is an excellent piece of information that should be given to every pupil and teacher.