English Bac

[eatyourveg]

I see the weekend papers are full of the "only 1 in 6 children pass the English Bacc" the new benchmark that has been brought in retrospectively this year.

Is it, or is it not a qualification. Worthless and just for the purposes of league tables or something that can be put on a CV to show you are one of the 1 in 6? If the latter is the case, does it mean last years cohort of GCSE students should expect some sort of certificate in the post?

Applauds GruffaloMama :)

(which board I wonder)

Xenia, I really am not sure what planet you are on. Nearly all children in selective private schools do well. Nearly all children in selective state schools do well. The clue is in the word 'selective'. Not all children in comprehensives do so well at academic subjects but they are not the children that would be selected by the private or state selective schools. You keep harking on to the broad education of the 1940s overlooking the fact that over 80% of the population left school at 14, the majority of whom without having had he opportunity to study a foreign language even at the most basic level.

Why do most parents realise that doing a GCSE in a language even if it's your worst subject is a good plan? It is actually a bit embarassing to have a D in French on your certificate if all your other subjects are A's.

History is a great subject that many pupils enjoy but they may have to give up to do something more suited to their career plans if they don't want to have a totally overcrowded timetable.

I think it's good to have a broad education acoss the full range of subjects but I have not said all children are bright enough to do a full range, just that it is right to give parents information. Every school I've ever known now and i my childhood has insisted children do a language, maths, english lit english lang etc - there are more schools out there where children aren't up to the broad range than I thought. Thank goodness I have been able to segregate my children from that because of my wise career choices.

"Thank goodness I have been able to segregate my children from that"

Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Xenia, you crack me up.

And thank goodness I chose to send my child to state school so they could be segregated from the narrow minded and snobby elitist attitudes of public school.

Any child that has good parental support and emphasis on the values of education from home can succeed in the state system. They also gain a better grounding in skills which are essential to be successful in the wider world rather than the cossetted narrow niche of a private school.

I had a choice when my dd was 3 to send her to the local state c of e primary or the very well regarded and highly academically successful prep school nearby. However on visiting the school it was clear that the results are gained from taking the children in at 3 years old and priming and drilling the students to pass exams. From the age of 7 the desks were organised into straight rows, teacher at the front with children silent and listening. In the older classes, the children were being prepped for exams as early as September, doing practice papers rather than actively engaged in genuine learning experiences. I chose not take this route for my child.

There are some failings in the state system- but my dd is learning well and having fun to boot. She also has a wide set of friends from different social circles and is growing up seeing different aspects of life in our local area.

BunnyWunny - are you actually me?

Beautiful post. Thank you.

Just another thought - if all the papers have been telling children/teenagers that five out of six of them have failed a test that they didn't even know they were taking/weren't entered into and can be imposed on them retrospectively, is this just another example of how this country likes to undermine and discourage its young people?

"Hey kids, you are all thick and stupid for not passing your driving test even though you like to cycle everywhere?"

I really don't see what the point is in perpetuating this story that some state school pupils are not being given poor advice about which subjects to choose.

My niece is very bright and wants to go to university. The school has encouraged her to pick 3 A levels, 2 of which are on that list of subjects considered unsuitable for university entrance. My niece keeps going on about how she is going to get into a good university and then walk into a job in the media.

I cannot say anything to her about it, because I don't want to annoy my SIL and it really isn't my business.

I hope they bring in something like the English Bacc at A level, so that it is no loner acceptable for schools to mislead students like my niece.

Xenia, thank you so much for your posts on this subject/thread. I have sometimes been questioned about my choice of school for my DD - the school was in Special Measures at one point - but your posts can be used to combat any doubt about the kind of person and the kind of values that my DD needed to be protected from.

Quite apart from your literacy skills
"fot eh 1940s traditional subjects employers adn" your attitude to children is disgusting. I am a teacher and I have never met a 'thick' child. I have met demoralised, disadvantaged children, children with emotional needs or mental health issues, vulnerable, frightened children, children coping with tragedies that were beyond the scope of my imagination, children with abusive, toxic parents, children with specific learning difficulties, and children who were, well, teenagers, or who had become disengaged in an education system which allows no flexibility for the variety of experiences and maturity and growth that human beings experience.

The world must be a very frightening place for you. What a shame your 'wise career choices' and traditional education have not educated you in tolerance and humanity.

If you read the small print for many 'top' universities you will find they do specify a foreign language at GCSE.

We found this out the hard way when my DS1 was applying. Luckily he did scrape a pass in French. Otherwise he would not have been able to even apply to the course he is currently on.

Ds2 is at a special needs school. In Year 10 he was not given the luxury of choosing options, He does English, Maths, Science, History, Geography, PHSE, PE, Art and French. He will never get up to GCSE level (instead he is doing entry level exams for the core subjects,unit awards for others and an access language thing for French.

I will consider him as having the English Bac - just at a more appropriate level. All schools could do the bac but differentiated to account for different ability levels.

Perhaps if you want to compare schools solely on results you would have league tables that simply stated % of pupils getting higher tier bac, % of pupils getting foundation tier bac and % pupils getting entry level bac.

I'm sure there would be space in the timetable for at least one or two option choices. DS1 has just got his so called bac, he has 12 GCSEs and I do wonder what on earth he needs 12 for when the bac subjects and one or two additional subjects would be more than ample.

"I don't think the rich necessarily have children with higher IQs"

They don't necessarily and without exception but a study did show something along these lines about the children of professional people.

There was a thread about it, about nature/nurture I think and whether it was children got more support at home.

I tend to agree with the people who were going on a week or so ago about our potential not being genetically limited so I think it's more to do with school/teachers/parental commitment.

Re Millyr's comment: perhaps women can come on with advice from their careers to tell children what will work in reality for their chosen future.

My v good journo friend says not to choose media studies for journalism but history/english/something more academic.

True? I know there are lots of journos here.

What about other jobs?

sorry about strike, not intended

absolutely categorically not media studies for journalism - dh works in broadcasting and is in a position of hiring people and gets hundreds and hundreds of applications each time his organisation advertises a job. The media studies graduates don't even get onto the consideration pile unless they've got stacks of relevant experience.

None of my journalist colleagues has a media studies degree - it's all history, English, PPE, MFL - although tbh a science degree would make a candidate stand out (v few journalists really understand science properly)

I did a postgraduate diploma in broadcast journalism - and the postgrad diplomas from City and Cardiff are fine - but everything else is a waste of time if you think you're heading for a newsroom

that's great,.. i miht start a thread.. may I copy and paste your post

This is the thing - why don't the state school parents all know this? If you have the 8 or so traditional GCSEs and good A levels you will do fine in those jobs where it matters (which of course aer not most jobs in factories and the like).

If universities require a foreign language as I'm sure they always have and some do still today then the state schools should be telling parents at age 11 if your child doesn't get a move on to pass their GCSE french or considers dropping it then their chances of XYZX university are totally ruined. It's only the ignorance I'm complaining about.

Also people wrongly think media studies A level is great for journalism. you'd be better off with English and then an English degree from a good university. Same with law - law A level is done by people who aren't very bright who don't become lawyers. "Business studies" tends to eb for the not so bright either and yet a parent without much edication might thing the journalist/lawyer/business children should do media studies, law and business studies A levels.

The universities have on their web sites lists of dubious A levels so it's not hard for teenagers really to check but schools could do a bit more.

i started a thread xenia

subjects of death

i'm sure you could contribute

Xenia - do you have GCSE spelling ?

I do not think that Xenia can be a real person.

Xenia obviously has a marvellous "edication" and has a wonderful life being sheltered from those thick factory workers who do the unimportant jobs.

Seriously, what a nasty attitude you have Xenia.

Honestly though, if you wanted to make sweeping statements about 'thick' children and how pleased you were not to have anything to do with them, you just wouldn't mess it up for yourself by writing THAT badly, would you?

And you wouldn't claim to know what's what in the state and the private sector and then completely undermine yourself by referring to 'metalwork' GCSEs and the like?

JoanofArgos, I am a purple poppy elsewhere x

Xenia - you are assuming that ALL children want to go to university. They don't!

Some of them - as I said before - want to be dong. And French or German or Spanish is of no use to them. We need to think of the individual child rather than creating a mass of automated robots all aiming for the top universities and the 'top' jobs.

Myself, I have a dd who WILL do well. Because that's what she aims for - she wants to be a midwife; she sets herself targets, works her fingers to the bone, wants to learn, find out, discover more, challenge etc etc. She's forthright, progressive, well read - and studying BAC subjects at - shock, horror - a state school - where her path is well known, and where she is actively encouraged to aim high.

My son? Not a chance. It's just not his bag. He works hard enough. Shines in some places, not in others. Would rather nobody ever noticed him. Ever.

Two different children, two different needs. And the state system is meeting those needs just fine.

Edited to add - English teacher here - blush! some of them want to be DOING, not dong. Although dong does have a certain comedic value.

I also don't mean that my son won't do well - he will, but not by someone like Xenia's standards. I think he may not even go to Uni and if he doesn't I'll get over it. He will do well because he will be himself, bless him.

Gruffalo and Danebury
You both talk a lot of sense.
Going back to the OP'S original question, EatyourVeg asked about the Eng Bacc, not about the state/private debate.
Personally, I'd like to know a few more FACTS about the English Bacc and how it will work out in the future for successive cohorts of pupils.