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Secondary education

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Original poster

The English Baccalaureate has really affected the League tables...

552 replies

MrsTweedy · 12/01/2011 11:55

Is anyone else finding this fascinating? I am really surprised at how few pupils at well-regarded schools in my area have done what I would consider core subjects eg
Richmond Upon Thames

The Ebacc is basically English, Maths, a science, a language & history or geography with A*-C passes. These were compulsory in my day (okay I am ancient and did O Levels). It just shows how the curriculum has changed and how schools have been slanting it recently to improve their league standings on the previous benchmark.

I suppose it depends on which criteria you use to rate them ie either the EBacc or just 5 A-C GCSEs at the end of the day but it is certainly a surprising result in some cases.

OP posts:
fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:03

'I don't know, perhaps they could just pop across the water and find some?'

What, with all that money they've got?

My college has just lost 1.3 million in funding. Schools are losing more.

Absolutely bizarre to think it's going to be easy to find thousands more MFL teachers at a time when the Govt is cutting funding and teachers' pensions and raising tuition fees.

thelastresort · 15/01/2011 20:04

Well, perhaps you might like to tell the universities that, EvilTwins.

Unfortunately, they do ask for academic GCSEs and many ask, in their small print, for an MFL at GCSE.

Fine if you don't agree but it's certainly not just middle class parents who care about the 'core' GCSEs, the 'top' universities most certainly do too.

mamatomany · 15/01/2011 20:05

I am convinced that it is middle class parents who care about these "core" GCSEs, not employers.

Yeah and a heck of a lot of those parents are employers or in hiring roles.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:06

'Seriously, though, difficulty in recruitment is a pathetic reason'

So how do you suggest they teach the subject then WITH NO TEACHERS?

I'd say that's a fairly good reason for not teaching a subject!!!

That combined with the fact that not many students want to learn it in this country.

It's quite obvious you're not a teacher yourself!

snorkie · 15/01/2011 20:08

Ebacc is more than 5 GCSEs though as science is 2 or 3 and english is 2 (though you don't actually have to pass all of them) so it does encourage 7 or 8 core subjects across a range and that leaves 2 or 3 own choice ones which is actually a pretty good balance imo and I'd have thought would be well received by most if not all employers/universities.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:09

But WHO cares whether a student has History or RE?

Nobody I've ever met, employer, parent or admissions tutor.

Who cares if a student applying to be a medic with 9A*s including maths, physics, biology and chemistry doesn't have an MFL?

Who cares if a student applying to do English has drama instead of history or doesn't have a science???

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:12

Supposing a student wants to be a secondary teacher specialising in English and Drama and does:

English Lang
English Lit
Maths
Drama
RE
History
French
PE
Spanish

This student wouldn't get the E Bacc even if she got A*s in all subjects and would be perfectly prepared for her vocation.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:15

Or

Maths
English Lang
Eng Lit
Physics
Biology
Chemistry
ICT
History
Music

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:15

To be an scientist.

LondonMother · 15/01/2011 20:22

Maybe I'm missing something very obvious, but isn't science compulsory under the National Curriculum to age 16? So why isn't there any science on your list?

In any case, isn't the EBacc primarily about giving information to Ofsted, the government and parents about what kind of qualifications pupils are getting at each school, rather than giving pupils yet another qualification (I know there's talk of giving them a certificate, but I was assuming that would be something akin to a certificate of attendance rather than anything that they might have to produce in later life). Any university that wants that particular combination of subjects will already have it in their entry criteria.

mamatomany · 15/01/2011 20:24

Isn't it about not closing doors to students too early though ?
That's my understanding and I think it's a good thing. I decided at 16 I wanted to go into an area that required A Level Chemistry but already I'd blown it by taking dual award science, so i'd have to resit GCSE's which I was too stubborn to do, so I did something else instead. NOw I am prepared to work hard and get the required grades I am too old, they don't want me.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:28

But what sort of school is in a position to ignore the league tables??? If the EBACc is how they will be judged then the EBACC is what they will have to do regardless of whether that is right for the school or the students.

MrsMipp · 15/01/2011 20:34

"So how do you suggest they teach the subject then WITH NO TEACHERS?
I'd say that's a fairly good reason for not teaching a subject!!!
That combined with the fact that not many students want to learn it in this country."

But this is the problem, isn't it? It's chicken and egg. If students don't get an opportunity to learn a language, then they won't go on to be language teachers. But if it was simply a case of lack of teachers then languages are something that it's fairly easy to get support with. There are plenty of Europeans who are bilingual, thankfully.

My point is more that negative thinking isn't going to get us anywhere. If you say that "oh we can't do that" then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course we can't get all secondary pupils speaking an MFL in one years' time. But it doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile target. Sure, it might take a long time to get there but wouldn't it be great if we did?

"It's quite obvious you're not a teacher yourself!"

Equally, it's quite obvious that you are a teacher who knows nothing about working in IT.

daphnedill · 15/01/2011 20:38

@ Kez

"Teachers (esp Science, MFL and Humanities)shafted with retrospective assessment"

The percentage of pupils with two sciences or a language has been available as part of the league tables for a number of years. I'm sure savvy parents looked at these figures in addition to the headline five A*-C figure. The difference is that NVQs and BTECs won't count. The teachers themselves shouldn't feel shafted, as it was probably the head who pushed them towards the vocational qualifications in the first place. They'll probably be miffed that all the extra planning might now be abandoned. To be honest, though, I think most schools will realise that they have some pupils who will never achieve the "magic five" and carry on offering subjects outside the EBacc regardless.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 20:52

'If students don't get an opportunity to learn a language, then they won't go on to be language teachers.'

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree that we should be encouraging students to do langauges. But making it compulsory and judging schools on this retrospectively without having told them they should be doing it is not the way.

You have to start teaching MFL properly with real MFL teachers from primary school or its not surprising students don't want to take it up at secondary level when they're more inhibited and they've lost the langauge 'window'.

We also need to change our attitude to other cultures and languages generally.

'But if it was simply a case of lack of teachers then languages are something that it's fairly easy to get support with.'

I don't follow you here. Are you suggesting you just get some foreign people in to schools to teach langauges?

Xenia · 15/01/2011 20:56

If you want the sttae schools to give the private schools more of a run for their money then the state schools need to get chidlren doing the 8 core GCSEs most of the private sector does and you need at look at history. Univesrities used to require a foreign language and as I said the 1940s UK school cert had similar 8 core subjects. These things are tried and tested and work so the private sector never threw them out and children benefited. The state sector went for strange new and not well regarded GCSEs using chidlren as guinea pigs in an experiment which failed.

PartialToACupOfMilo · 15/01/2011 21:10

I believe secondary headteachers have actually been advised by their unions to not make major changes to their curriculum in light of the EBAC. I guess those in education don't see it lasting Confused

In response to some posters querying geology as a humanity; I work in a very successful grammar school as I actually meant 'my school' when I said 'some schools' - History, Geography, RE and Geology all offered as humanities. Also we offer Latin as a language (obviously we don't term it a 'modern language', but it is still a language. Every year it is very popular, more so than German and French and just behind Spanish. The thing with studying Latin at GCSE is that there is no speaking component and that is where the majority of (our if not most) pupils have weaknesses. Also, if pupils are only taking a language 'because they have to' Latin is a good choice as there is a lot of history that comes with it. You need to know little if anything about the history, geography, literature etc of France, Germany, Spain etc to get a GCSE in one of those languages - not particularly great if you're hopeless at grammar / vocabulary but brilliant in humanities.

And overseas teachers... as someone whose career choice is secondary level modern languages, it kind of pains me to say it, but our worst appointments in terms not only of language teacher, but also teachers of other subjects, have come from overseas. The best French, German, Spanish teachers are teaching in France, Germany and Spain Wink

However the best French teacher in my department is actually French, so obviously doesn't work in all cases!

Renniehorta · 15/01/2011 21:10

I actually don't think that there is a shortage of language teachers. We had enough a few years ago. Anecdotally I am a fully qualified MFL teacher who is choosing not to work. I have 2 similarly qualified friends in the same position. Another friend now teaches in adult ed. I also know 2 other MFL teachers one of whom now teaches ICT and the other Health and Social Care.

I am sure this is a situation repeated all over the country.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 21:23

'The state sector went for strange new and not well regarded GCSEs using chidlren as guinea pigs in an experiment which failed.'

State schools were forced to compete for 5 A-C GCSEs in reponse to the introduction of league tables.

They will now be forced to jump through another set of hoops.

fivecandles · 15/01/2011 21:28

You may not think there is a shortage of MFL teachers but in fact there is

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/07/teachershortage.teachertraining

Since there is going to be a massive uptake of languages next year to meet the demands of E BACC the shortage is going to increase dramatically. And the schools that will find it most difficult to recruit will be the ones where there are most vulnerable students.

circular · 15/01/2011 21:34
Remotew · 15/01/2011 21:37

I haven't seen any entrance criteria for med school that requires a language at GCSE.

dreamingofsun · 15/01/2011 21:47

you are going to start to face teacher shortages in 5 years time anyway. who would want to take on 50k+ debt on a salary of not much and have to repay it once they get to 21k?

at least if you get a degree and then go into something more lucrative or not lucrative at all you won't get stung so badly. teaching is the worst of both worlds

Renniehorta · 15/01/2011 21:50

You may not think there is a shortage of MFL teachers but in fact there is

Languages jobs have been rare as hen's teeth for the last few years. If you read the TES you will get a feel for the number of jobless NQTs in particular.