Views on secondary schools for girls: issues with single sex school and boarding schools

[kris123]

DanZZ asked about my views on my DDs secondary education.

As I received many great responses from various parents on other threads, I feel almost obliged to answer you on this topic.

In summary

My DDs are in state primary, and will hopefully go to mixed state grammar, followed by university.

If they will however only go to single sex grammar (easier to get in, more of them), then I will think of changing a school for them at 16+ level to mixed grammar, mixed private or even mixed boarding school, finances permitting.

Importantly, when it comes to DD I have a strong preference for mixed schools at 16 - 18 level (though I am aware of statistic that girls perform better in single sex environment) as I feel that the journey into adulthood is best if it is gradual. The same would be true for boys, but somehow I feel that for girls this is of the higher importance than for boys (who nicely catch up at university). For instance, number of very smart career girls I know who went to top single sex boarding schools told me that they will not repeat this experience for their DDs, as despite the excellent education they received, they were not prepared to meet the boys for the first time at the university lecture hall. It was almost a shock for them.

As to boarding... i have no problem with it for girls per se, indeed I would prefer it for the girls too, but I fear that due to dominance of single sex schools in this country, the sacrifice made in academic quality in order to be in the mixed boarding school will outweight the boarding benefits with respect to that of the grammar school.

In some way, especially when your DD or DS is boarding, you want them to be surrounded by smart kids with similar academic ethos and career goals.

DanZZ, what route are you thinking of for your DD? I could be wrong with my view, so I would also appreciate any constructive criticism to my way of thinking.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England Here's] the list of ALL 168 selective grammars in England, for reference.

grrrrrrrr

i can't do links tonight

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England here] goes again

ignore me

It seems to me extraordinarily arrogant for anyone to assume that their child will get into a grammar school. There are very few of them and competition for places is very high. Also how can you judge that your child would suit any school if they are still small? Surely if you have the financial means to do so you keep your options open as much as possible?

My uncle and mother were sent to Harrow and Downe House respectively (both boarded). He hated it, ran away repeatedly and did very badly. She was very happy. My uncle them sent his two children to the same schools (funded by my grandparents as he did not do at all well, possibly due to having hated school so much). His son hated it and didn't do very well either. His daughter enjoyed herself but also didn't do particularly well. My cousins (other side of the family) all went to single sex boarding school (in the Malverns) again the girls did better than the boys, and were also happier.

So I could say that single sex boarding is great for girls and bad for boys but I wouldn't because it depends totally on the child and the school. For my own children I would specifically avoid single sex (both dh and I went to single sex schools) education because I think it is artificial and because I would like them to go to the same school.

I really find the OP's position very difficult to understand. Why do her girls need a gradual transition into 'adulthood' (ie spending time with children of the opposite sex, although why that is adulthood I'm not sure) but not her ds - what evidence does she have that the boy sheltered from girls will catch up easily but not the girl sheltered from boys? And why does her son need special schooling and not her dds? It just seems incredibly sexist to me unless the ds has some sort of special need.

I thought about private school when we were still in the UK, but it would always have been for both of my children (and for a good mixed day school).

Will need to repeat this for Nth time, but I will do it this time in plain economic format which should make things more transparent I think (my uni prof would be proud, though many of you will probably flame me for this).

In some way I feel that Eton at 30k is actually good value for money. In England you compare it to Sevenoaks at 27k, Winchester at 30k, whereas if you compare it to its peers globally, in terms of recognition for instance, you could compare it to the likes of say Le Rosey in Switzerland which costs some 60k per year (with Eton actually being academically significantly superior to Le Rosey anyway hence perhpas Eton could be worth even more than that).

Imagine then that Eton is worth to a child 60k per year, and every boy who gets in receives an automatic "goodwill scholarship" of 30k per year, as the fees could be 60k (but the College opts not to put them at 60k in order to ensure very high standard of admissions).

Could Sevenoaks charge 60k? I don't think so, so this is why I do not think that paying 27k for it would be such a rational choice for me. Furthermore, is some local indi school which is ranked no 50 (but is indi), worth 14k a year for tuition only? To me its not.

In exactly the same way, you can also think of kids who enter grammar schools, as ones who receive an automatic goodwill scholarship of say 15k a year, as this education is worth that much if it were to be "for sale". It is for free though, meaning net benefit of all 15k per year.

You should understand my decision making process much better now, and why I would think that going to the grammar school and receiving the NET BENEFIT of say 15k per year outweights that of going to Sevenoaks where the NET BENEFIT would be close to zero (i pay 27k and receive 27k), and why on the other hand I would think that paying 30k for Eton is a good value, as the child receives 60k in benefit, hence a NET BENEFIT of 30k per year.

Of course there is a potential flaw here as I could be wrong about my perceived benefits, but somehow I think that they are not that far off. Le Rosey is not an imaginary place I assure you.

So with respect to my DDs, I simply struggle to find a school that will in my mind offer enough benefits to outweight that 15k of perceived NET BENEFIT of the grammar school, not to mention net benefit of 30k of Eton, hence the choice on DS is so much simpler.

So far I heard Sevenoaks and Marlborough, but could either offer that huge NET BENEFIT to my DD? Or perhaps it will be better to send DDs to the grammar schools instead, and simply hand dd over 140k that I would have spend in fees, so that she can buy a flat?

I am sure that I lost many of you totally now, but rest assured, I think that I am very quiet fair in my decision making process.

I think you are using some fairly odd calculations there. Something costing a lot of money doesn't mean it is necessarily worth a lot of money. Eton doesn't charge high fees because it is academically superior to every other school in the UK, but because it can (in fact it is not known particularly for it's academic standards - you don't have to be incredibly bright to go there). It markets itself very very effectively and thus has huge snob value over and above the education it offers, and that doesn't really translate to the next step on - ie university. I know a few people who have been to Eton and they didn't get a particularly superior education to any other boarding school with excellent facilities.

That the girls equivalents are not so well known is due to societal values about the value of educating women - ie send your daughter to Roedean or Benenden for manners and deportment and your son to Eton, Harrow or Rugby for making connections.

If you are really trying to make a calculated attempt to send your children to what you consider to be the academically best schools then you need to do a great deal more research. Otherwise I still maintain that you should look to your child's strengths and where they need more support and choose a school accordingly. The value of the right setting to your individual child has little to do with the price tag. Eton might be ideal for your son, or a nightmare, and likewise the grammar schools that you still seem to be blithely assuming your dds will attend. I think one of the points that people are trying to make is that if you send your son to Eton, taking all the money (I think that you said on the other thread that you couldn't afford all your children to board at a high prestige school) then if your dds don't get in to the grammar school then you will not be able to educate them privately. That could set up a huge amount of resentment between them (of course it could be the other way around - that your son resents his stay at home sisters, I've certainly seen that where the son has been sent off to the almer mater whilst the daughters go to school locally. It is a huge difference and one that most children will be totally aware of.

I too find your logic and calculation bizarre on several counts.

Firstly your assumption that Eton is superior to Le Rosey. It's not. And they're a completely different kettle of fish so you cannot compare them! Besides, as you've repeatedly pointed out school is not just about academics. If it were you'd be headed for St Paul's or Westminster over Eton.

Secondly the idea that your DS will benefit most. What if one of your DDs wants to go to Cheltenham or Wells and is an outstanding musician? How will you justify having put DS through Eton but not letting your DD go to a specialist school for something she truly excels at?

Thirdly putting an absolute economic value on a school. How are you doing that? Personally Sevenoaks is worth more to me than Eton is. 2nd best in the country for IB, best coed and boarding school for it. Again you're comparing apples to oranges. A more valid comparison would be Sevenoaks to Le Rosey really in which case it depends how highly you price bilingualism and winters spent skiing.

Kris

Hqve you considered that Le Rosay might be vastly, vastly overpriced? and that it charges such fees because it caters to the real jet set, the Russian oligarchs, the seriously rich, for whom two things are true and which seem unlikely to be true for you and your son:

• money is no object at all*
• other things like security are paramount. If your child might be a security target, then Le Rosay is a brilliant option.

Hence they are willing to pay the 60k premium. Does not at all mean it is a better education. Esp not for a kid from an ordinary family.

I agree that Eton is(whilst horribly expensive, obviously) good value: it (along with Winchester and Westminster) has such huge endowments that every child there is effectively subsidised. NB also that most boarding schools have fees in a very similar range to Eton. It also offers an amazing education and these days is academic and tough to get into (although, I would agree, less so that Westminster or St Pauls). Does the OP's ds have a place? If so, well done; if not, what is the back up plan?

Whilst I understand completely that different children need different schools and that can mean using both state and independent schools, I do think that the OP's girls may end up feeling a bit hard done by: they may get academic results just as good as those achieved by Eton; but what about the rest? What about the theatres and the music facilities and the beautiful buildings and the polo ponies and the rowing lake? What about the incredible levels of individual attention?

Likewise, what if they don't get into grammar school? Nooka is talking a lot of sense here, I think.

When I was at school, I went to the state, single sex, selective grammar in our town. We then moved for my father's work when I was 16, and I went to an all-girl boarding school for 6th form (one of those which is apparently a 'girls Eton' ) This had always been the plan - to board for 6th form - but the choice of school was influenced by the location; it was only about an hour away from home, while some of the alternatives were much further.

My brother also went to the local grammar - the boys' - until we moved. The area we moved to didn't have selective grammars and the comprehensives were either Catholic (and very good) or in Special Measures. So my brother went to the nearest Independent day school, about half an hour away, all boys. He stayed there for 6th form, because having moved schools once he chose not to change again.

Our youngest brother was in primary when we moved, and went to the same school as the other brother when he was old enough. He never went to the grammar because it wasn't there. He will be leaving to board for 6th form, because though he's been happy there, he's not been thrilled with the place and he's keen to go elsewhere - and to experience boarding.

If any of us hadn't got into the grammar we would have gone to the local Indy day school (which happened to be mixed).

Anyway, my point is, the monetary value of each of our education hasn't been 'equal'. We've all been a mixture of state, boarding, indy. But none of us resent it because we know our parents did the best thing for each one of us, based on the options available to each of us at the time, with our own input as to what would make us happy, and giving us the opportunities they could. However, if they had taken the OP's approach, I'm pretty sure we would have huge resentment among ourselves and towards our parents. It seems terribly unfair to me, despite the apparent logic of 'Eton is worth 60k'

(Incidentally, the 'bitchy atmosphere' seemed more prevalent at my grammar than my boarding, whereas there were more eating disorders at the boarding than the grammar. And I'd say there was more bullying at the grammar - there was none at the boarding school, it was a lovely atmosphere. Looking back, there was very cruel bullying at the grammar that I perhaps didn't notice at the time. That's only my experience though, of two schools and a few girls. I wouldn't say that's a general rule, or even that there is a general rule.)

i think your tone (dogmatic and patronising imo) unfortunate and your ideas bizzare op. you've given me a headache tring to understand your arguments and made me feel very irritated into the bargain. good luck with your choices and good luck to your dcs.

kris - I'm not entirely convinced that you are real - I wonder if you are a journalist? Or some sort of complex hoaxer? But, on the assumption that you are real, then you simply cannot regard your dd and ds's education like this. Your analysis is very unemotionaly and logical, and may even have some merit - but that it not how your daughter will see it. All she will see is that her brother was the beneficiary of thousands of pounds and an education which opens many doors to him (regardless of academic merit), while she was not considered worthy of the same largesse. She will not understand that"it was just the right school for the right child". She just won't. She will be resentful and jealous and it will ruin her relationship with her brother.

seeker, i think there are 3dds and one ds

i thank you.

Have just seen this Kris - it's me DanZZZenAroundTheTreeAgain without my Christmas frills.

Will have a read. Sorry , wasn't ignoring you!

Going back to your OP Kris: "As to boarding... i have no problem with it for girls per se, indeed I would prefer it for the girls too, but I fear that due to dominance of single sex schools in this country, the sacrifice made in academic quality in order to be in the mixed boarding school will outweight the boarding benefits with respect to that of the grammar school.

In some way, especially when your DD or DS is boarding, you want them to be surrounded by smart kids with similar academic ethos and career goals.

DanZZ, what route are you thinking of for your DD? I could be wrong with my view, so I would also appreciate any constructive criticism to my way of thinking."

I just have one dc Kris, so perhaps I spend an extortionate amount of time thinking about this (and worrying about it). You have 5 dc, so your thoughts and financial considerations will be very different.

I am not opposed to single sex education for girls per se. I attended single sex schools (many due to an expat lifestyle). My final school is considered posh. I was happy there. I am not sure if it would be the right school for my dd. She is very different to me and at 10, I am not really sure how she will develop and who she will be at say 16 IYSWIM.

Could you tell me why you are so in favour of boarding? You mention academic achievement (single sex grammar) vs. the benefits of boarding (mixed) and I wondered what you felt the benefits of boarding were specifically.

Specifically our situation: At present we are overseas and dd is still young, our future location is not yet clear. It may be Singapore, it may be the UK, it may be the States. At the moment tbh I am concerned that boarding would not suit my dc which is one thing which concerns me a lot in making a decision about her secondary education.

We are Catholic (dh perhaps more so than me) and are leaning (or at least he is) towards St. Marys and Stonyhurst atm but by no means decided. I am not so keen on mixed boarding tbh but am keeping an open mind for now.

What is important to me personally is that the school, if it is going to be a privileged education, has an ethos which I am happy with and that there is an element of service to the community involved. I would not really like my dd to simply benefit from an elitist educational setting, I would be concerned that her character is being continued to be formed in a way that I hope I am doing at home. I am not hell bent on academic success although tbh I do expect her to be alright. Getting in and out of university successfully is one thing, being prepared for life is another really, isn't it?

Looking at my dd as she is now at the age of 10, I want a "cosy" school for her. Maybe when she is 16, I will feel differently but for now I want her to live at home and I want a school with a strong ethos which aligns with mine and where she feels welcome rather than pressured.

It is very hard indeed I think if you have the luxury of choice to choose. Good luck finding the right solutions for all your dc Kris

I would think very carefully about a single sex boarding school. It is fine when they are younger but the older they are the more restrictive they find it. I can speak with some knowledge about Cheltenham Ladies. There are some very fine people working there but the school is absolutely hide bound by petty rules - and I mean petty! - which are very strictly enforced. To be frank, the girls are under the cosh 24/7 and a girl with shaky self esteem might be very unhappy indeed.