Triple Science - am I right to make this a must-have?

[DilysPrice]

I'm looking around for state secondary schools in London for DCs (now years 4 and 2, so planning ahead - we might even end up moving).
Apart from all the normal things you want from a school, (starting with not being a complete hell hole where there are huge fights outside the school gate on a regular basis), I have the preconception that they need a school which offers triple science at GCSE, because as far as I can tell they're both of an academic and scientific bent, and are pretty likely to end up choosing career paths which require this (or at least find it useful).

OTOH I have a feeling that I may be a bit out of date on this, and things may now be different. Does it matter?

Interesting that some of you are saying your kids didn't chose triple science because it was an option. I'm a science teacher and our top sets do triple but just in the same time as everyone else does core and additional (it's not called double anymore). As a department we are talking about pushing for it to be put into the options so they can have more time for the triple science but maybe that'd put some off.
Our top sets (and those who express an interest in a-level) in year 9 start the gcse course in January too to give extra time.

And from talking to the 6th form college we think that if you want to do a-level sciences that having done triple is a definate advantage but that 2 very good grades is better than 3 good grades.

faileddoctor in double science (although as I said in the last post it's not called that now) you do 1 module of bio, chem and phys plus an investigative skills assessment (that might varies with exam boards) and they make up 25% each of Core Science.
Then you do another module in each subject plus another ISA and they also add up to give Additional Science. So you get 2 grades for 2 science GCSEs.

Different schools teach it in different ways. We all teach 2 sciences so I'm doing bio just now and will do phys after their 1st exam in Nov.

I think that last point is important Debi.

The last point of your first post!

I agree Cat64, I don't expect the current options to be the same in 5 years time or so. But to me it's an indication of whether a school is geared up for children who might be heading in quite an academic direction, double/triple science isn't the end of the world. Nor is just one language at GCSE, languages are easy to add to later. But it's the general sense that the school has expectations that the brighter kids might want to read medicine say or NatSci, and that the options strucure will permit the sorts of GCSE that will facilitate this.

I agree with all the comments about both the schools subject offerings and the childrens interests changing.
DDs school had a change in option choices from last year that is giving the academic kids one less option. It

A language used to be compulsory for both the double and triple science paths, with the former having 4 option choices, the latter 3.
Last year it change such that the "doubles" only get 3 further option choices. The triples still get 3 choices but there is no longer a compulsory language in the core.
We were told this is because a lot of kids that are good at science are no good at languages. They alsSIDSid if languages were dropped in favour of science and it looked like becoming a problem for uni applications, there would be facilities in the 6th form to take a language gcse. We personally would not want to chance that.
Never did find out why they now end up with an option less.

'I am flabbergasted by parents who intend to dictate to their children what GCSEs they will take.'

You have to steer the kids into what options they want to do, and you should imo start this discussion in Year 8, so you are prepared for options. If left to their own devices, some might not choose a wide spread of GCSEs, or may want to drop a language, or do lots of arty stuff, or end up with an ill thought out set of options that are very heavily course work based.

If you think your child may do A levels and then Uni, you need to make sure that they are doing a good breadth of GCSEs (preferably with the majority solid academic subjects), which gives them the chance to do IB or A levels. You also need to factor into the equation that GCSE subjects and results can be taken into consideration for Uni offers. If you are applying to read an academic subject at a good Uni, and GCSE grades are the decider on who gets an offer, then GCSE hairdressing and childcare isn't going to get you that offer as opposed to a candidate with 2 languages, history and 3 sciences for example.

Teenagers don't like some of the advice that parents give, and they whinge about it, but that goes with the territory of having a teenager. My job is to make sure my ds has the right set of GCSEs to enable him to do A levels and then Uni. That hasn't meant ructions, we discussed the options, we all agreed on them, and we are all happy.

I agree scaryteacher, with uni places becoming more and more competitive in all subjects they are looking at gcse results as well as a-level.

My kids are only 4 and 2 but I'd like to think that when they are 12ish I will try to encourage them to take sensible subjects for gcse. But I don't want to turn into one of the parents that teachers don't like who is overly pushy and starts every converstation with "as I am a teacher with a physics degree I know that my darling child who is perfect in every way must do triple science because they are a genius"

I disagree with Scaryteacher - Universities take into account that not all schools offer three sciences and are't that interested in what GCSEs but what grades.

I studied Engineering at Cambridge. I had done three separate sciences for GCSE. This was obviously a help to me when I did science A-levels, but most of the others at my college doing engineering had only a two science award.

There is a bit of a myth going round that children are allowed to drop academic subjects at GCSE. In my experience, academic children are never allowed to drop anything!

The thing is though, the vast majority of us never have to face the issue of whether to dictate to our children what to do or not because in the main children make sensible choices for themselves with maybe a little advice from parents and schools over any implications.

I'd like to think I wouldn't dictate to my children what to do, but then they have both made very reasonable choices themselves. I was happy for any quantity of sciences between 2 and 4 - one chose 4 and the other 2 (but independently increased to 3+, though we didn't know if that would work or not at the time of the choice). I would have pushed quite hard for a language to be included if either had tried to opt out of that (they didn't) and I guess I'd like to have seen at least one humanity (but that too happened by itself). Obviously I like to think I'd have reasoned it out with them while leaving them the ultimate choice if they'd wanted to do some wierd selection of off-beat subjects, but if faced with a recalcitrant but very capable teenager intent on taking basket-weaving BTEC with media studies and horse care, who knows what I might have resorted to!

In short, I think some parental dictation over choices is OK in a few cases, but the parents need to be reasonable too in what they are trying to enforce.

Civil - I was talking about GCSE option choices in general, not specifically science. My ds is doing triple, as he was in the group chosen to do it.

Some kids do drop academic subjects at GCSE, I've had tutor groups where girls capable of good academic achievement did childcare and hairdressing, which was why I mentioned it.

It is a question that I have been asking at open evenings too. My dd1 is very creative, and I doubt very much that she will select sciences, although things can be change.

However, I also have a dd2, and I would very much like my children to attend the same school. She is showing lots of signs of being a science geek, so it is important for me that 3 sciences are offered.

Perhaps we shouldn't get too hung up on the Sciences question. I think that a good school should force encourage able kids to do at least:

1. core (eng, maths, sci)
2. a humanity
3. a language
4. an art
5. a technology.

This will cover bases and allow opportunities for most kids, and mean that no-one's choices are overly skewed by the child's / the school's / the parents' preferences.

They should offer that but often the timetable blocking doesn't allow it. Ds is not doing an art or a technology because he would have had to drop a language. I have rashly promised a cookery course somewhere once GCSEs are over, as he had to drop food and nutrition.

cat64 if we have students who are sure they don't want to do any science at a-level and are very keen on 'arty' subjects we will encourage them not to do triple science. Mainly because those subjects often involve a lot of soursework and as we aren't able to give extra time to the triple scientists we don't feel we should burden them with extra work.

Interesting discussion about GCSE choices. My daughter had four option choices. She chose French, Latin and History for the first three and the fourth was going to be Spanish but at the last minute she switched to Art, after a very persuasive presentation from the Art Dept. We were a bit surprised but her reports in Art had been OK and we (naively) assumed that if the school thought she would get a lower grade in Art than Spanish they would have said something. She didn't really enjoy the Art GCSE and got a C (I think she was lucky to get that, to be honest). She would almost certainly have got at least a B if she'd stuck with the Spanish, but more importantly I think it would have been more enjoyable for her.

On the point of science GCSE: the terminology is confusing! They all do triple science, in the sense that they all study topics from biology, chemistry and physics - but depending on ability/options choices, they might end up with one, two or three GCSEs in science. One GCSE means one module per science, and so on.

I think it is great you are thinking this through now. My dd has just started high school. Only 60 from 180 get to do all 3 science gcses. The 60 are selected from what looks like almost constant assessment! Although schools can change, year 4 isn't that far off year 7. Go to a few open days next September when your ds is in year 5. I wish we had done that rather than wait until yr 6.

Semis - that's an interesting split.

Problem is, there is now so much in the "core" that there may not be 4 further choices.

At DD1s school, they get 8 GCSEs from the core if they include triple science. So only 3 further options. If DD gets all her first choices, then she won't do a technology (unless ICT in the core counts).

I know some kids do end up with 13+ GCSEs bit that's usually when they start choosing the non- academic double/ quadruple awards.

Apologies "semis" should have read "senua".
That's auto correct and trying to type on a mobile on a moving train.

At DS's school the top set for Science can now do 5 single science GCSEs - Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Astronomy and Geology.

I think there does need to be some subject balance but unless a child has a real interest and flair, I don't see a point in doing more than one art or tech type subject within school hours. DD will probably do BTEC Dance which is equivalent to 2 GCSEs, but the school teach it outside of school hours.

[grin]@circular. I forgive you!

"I know some kids do end up with 13+ GCSEs bit that's usually when they start choosing the non- academic double/ quadruple awards"

It can also be 13 subjects but when you dig deeper you find it is something like 9 full GCSE and 4 half-courses.

Senua

"it can also be 13 subjects but when you dig deeper you find it is something like 9 full GCSE and 4 half-courses."

I was thinking more of the ICT etc that counts as two option choices but is supposedly equivalent to 4 GCSEs.

But by the time you count the PSEC, RS, PE and other core stuff with no qualification, they probably will be doing 13 different subjects.

I don't remember such a rigid core in my O" level days. Just double English, Maths and a language. And no-one did more than 9 at our grammar turned conp.

As for the triple science- great grounding but a shame when it has to be at the expense of another option.

I feel another options thread starting before the early spring rush,