Should I fight for triple science?

[Tarantella]

We've just come back from abroad and our daughter has gone into Year 10 at our local comp. They have been able to accommodate all her options at GCSE apart from Triple Science. At her school overseas all students were required to study triple science so we have been so far spared all the agony that I have been reading about on all the threads I have looked up on the subject.The problem seems to be that their Triple Science sets are full to bursting so they have put her in dual award science. As she has already achieved level 7 I am not happy about this.I am unsure about how much to battle (I have had a phone conversation with head of year and followed it up with an e-mail to which I have not received a reply)The problem is she is now saying "I'm fine mum" and it is also very unlikely that she will take science A levels. Should we just aim for good grades in dual? Another concern is thast I suspect all the motivated children are doing Triple Science although when I mentioned that I was immediately assured that they hacve very bright students doing dual!! This deciison also means she is doing 9 not 10 GCSE's. I know I need to act quickly as they will soon say it is too late to fix this. I did ring the school this morning to ask to see the Head of Science.

Aghh, who would be a parent!

Well it certainly isn't the end of the world if you are sure she doesn't want to specialize in Science, but Level Seven suggests she is good enough to if she changes her mind so I think I would beg and plead nicely for a bit longer if I were you.

At our school my daughter is in top set dual science and they are all well motivated. She was level 6.

To do triple, she had to choose it as an option and lose another subject to do it. As she didn't want to do that, she picked dual award science. Its the same depth, I believe, as triple but just less breadth - due to time spent on it.

Does this give your daughter the chance of sititng another GCSE in a subject she enjoys?

Yes, I don't think there will be any problem with unmotivated children in Dual Science - just children aiming for specialisms other than Science.

It may be a problem when she looks at sixth form if she wants to do a pure science as some will ask for an a-b grade in the chosen science, we agonised over her doing pure or dual and are really pleased we went against the advice that dual was just as good as pure science as she loves the subject, is doing brilliantly (100% in her chemistry modual) and will need the single sciences to take them at a level

i would fight this one

If she doesn't think that she wants to do A level I would leave her where she is.

As an aside, it is not the end of the world if she does dual and decides at later date to do a science at A level. Granted, it is a bit more difficult but a well motivated and intelligent student can cope perfectly well with the transition and gain good grades (I know, I am one and I have taught many others :))

She could consider studying for the extra science GCSE papers independently and getting the 3 science GCSEs while being taught in the duel class. If she's bright and motivated this can work, especially if you are able to support her yourselves (GCSE science isn't very hard, so you wouldn't need a huge science background to help).

Personally, I think triple science is more important for non A-level science takers as it's effectively the last science they will do. If she's capable of doing the triple I would try and sort something out, especially as she's not getting anything else instead by the sound of it.

Thanks all, you have given me courage to continue as the Head of Science did get back to me yesterday afternoon. He said there are three triple science sets and that there is space in the opposite band to which she has been placed.So she would probably have to have a wholesale change round of classes but its only two weeks into term and she says she is Ok with that so I will try to see the deputy head as suggested.

Snorkie, yes I did think of doing it outside school but would rather not if we don't have to!

Result!I guess the moral is I should have gone higher last week. Spoke to the deputy head first thing this morning and he said he would come back to me, two hours later he calls back, sorted! she is moving bands and doing triple science! Only problem is that due to numbers she will have to go in to a lower maths set but as there will be movement in the maths sets we can hopefully have her moved up again if she keeps up to scratch. Her option groups remain the same so she is back to doing 10 GCSE's.

I suppose this is what comes of moving at this point in time but I know we are nto the only ones.It is very tiring being a concerned middle-class parent especially since we are living out of suitcases and DH is till overseas!

well done you! Just make sure with the maths that her group will sit the higher tier papers (and be taught the work).

"It may be a problem when she looks at sixth form if she wants to do a pure science as some will ask for an a-b grade in the chosen science,"

Really? There are state sixth form colleges that will only take people with named science GCSEs in that subject? I find that slightly surprising, given the number of schools that don't even offer single sciences at GCSE, which are disproportionately the sort of schools that don't have their own sixth forms.

Glad it is sorted although if she's not doing As in scince and is sure about it, I wouldn't have worried. My DD did dual and got the science prize at the end of year 11, got A*s then got into Cambridge to do other subjects.

Sandripples, yes, I had similar advice from a friend who's daughter did dual science and got into medicine but I have realised that was now five years ago and the situation has changed. It is now much more common for all schools to offer trple science and the expected norm for academically able children. My daughter is a bit upset about the maths set but we have agreed she will just have to demonstrate her capability ad hope to be moved up.

Thanks to everyone for the very helpful insights and encouragement to keep pursuing with the school as I had just about given up.

"My daughter is a bit upset about the maths set"

If they have science AS Levels, no one is going to care if they have double or triple science at GCSE. If they end up doing something else, the difference between A and B at GCSE maths may be significant. I suspect this is all speculation, as the cohort for which triple science was widely offered (it had become the preserve of selective schools up until a few years ago) has yet to hit UCAS.

Tokyomambu, I am not exactly sure what yiou mean by all thias is speculation. You are right that the cohorts doing triple science have not yet reached UCAS and that is what has made it difficult to get advice. I will obviuosly have to keep close tabs on the maths. It is a bit galling for her to have to go into a lower set purely because of numbers.

Just musing. I was wondering if the price of going into a lower maths set which, with the best will in the world, risks a lower grade in maths is justified by the difference between A in double maths and A in triple maths. If you have science AS levels, no-one's looking at your GCSEs. If you don't have science AS levels, your maths may be more important than your science GCSE. As I say, just musing.

It sounds to me as if the school will try to put her up in Maths as there is likely to be some to and fro-ing between sets. Ask what grades the second set have achieved over the last couple of years - the top half of set two might well be challenging for the same grades as set one. And ask them to keep an eye on her.

When I say double and triple maths I mean double and triple science, of course.

But just because other people in your dd's set are achieving lower grades by no means implies that she will. It might happen if the set hasn't covered all the work in the syllabus or if the whole group sits a lower tier exam, but otherwise there's no reason at all why a more able mathematician in a lower set shouldn't still achieve highly.

" there's no reason at all why a more able mathematician in a lower set shouldn't still achieve highly."

In which case, surely, there's no point in differentiating the two sets?

It depends on the degree of differentiation I guess. But if the sets are targeting the same tier of exam and both complete teaching the syllabus then often, the children in them will do just as well as if they had been in two parallel classes within that group (except with the real setting the higher set may complete the work earlier and go on to start A level stuff which wouldn't happen with more spread abilities). So yes I'd agree that past a certain point there isn't always much benefit in setting.

For example, in a small mixed ability school where there might only be two maths sets, I'd still expect similar proportions of children to achieve each grade as at a bigger school with say 4 sets per year. You would still get children achieving As and A*s from more mixed ability teaching I think. In any setted system there are always children from the second set who outperform many (and occasionally all) in the set above in my experience.

Yep. Daughter was in set 4 of 5 for all of KS3. Always at the top and regularly complaining to the teacher she should be moved up. He said he couldn;t as set above was at maximm size and the one above that was disruptive and my daughter is a quiet thing, and it wouldn't suit her. He promised he would though if she proved herself in the year 9 exam. It worked well. She had great self esteem being in that set and doing well and after the exam, she moved up to set 2!

What you have to watch is that they are covering the right work. So long as they are being top of a lower set - if smaller numbers, great teacher or less disruptive (obviously sometimes lower sets do not have this) can be a good thing.

Good about the science, but a pain re lower set for maths. If she is able the top maths is more of a satisfying challenge.

Try one more blast at getting the desired lot of classes?

At my daughter's school (a bog standard comp in a 11+ grammar area) if you are doing Dual science the top set do triple science in the same time. They do have to attend an after school club though.

I don't think the fact that triple science is studied makes a difference. Know a girl at 6th form at Gloucester High School (an excellent grammar) who had tripled science at GCSE, is studying all 3 sciences and maths at A level, is confidently expected to gain a place at medical school.