How should I tackle this with the school? Any teachers with advice?

[cherryorchard]

DD was disappointed to have a B in one of her AS-levels.

She's hoping to try for Oxford, so this could make a big difference.

Looking at the details, she had a good A in the exam, but a C in the coursework.

I'm cross that her teacher let her submit coursework which only achieved a C. She's a bright and conscientious girl who achieved two other As.

She's going to ask if the coursework can be re-marked in the first place (if the mark isn't far off a B), but I'm still none to happy at the discrepancy with what the examiners expect and what the school allowed to be submitted, especially as she submitted a number of drafts to her teacher first. (The teacher for the coursework is also head of department).

How should I tackle this with the school? Ultimately it may make no difference to her, but it might affect my other child - and if the teaching/coursework isn't what will impress examiners, the school needs to address it.

Apparently she'd have to completely re-do the coursework if she wants to "resit" - is that correct?

tia

I don't think that's fair, really. Of course you don't expect an A-Level student to produce work that an academic in the field would consider 'truly original'. But that doesn't mean you can't tell when a 17-year-old has had fresh thoughts about a piece of literature that they've worked through for themselves. That is originality.

I think the problem with this coursework is we don't know whether the student did something brilliant but sloppy, or brilliant but not what the examiner wanted, or whether it was simply not very good. I'd think it's more important to find that out, than to get cross about the school not 'checking' before submission.

"Of course you don't expect an A-Level student to produce work that an academic in the field would consider 'truly original'. But that doesn't mean you can't tell when a 17-year-old has had fresh thoughts about a piece of literature that they've worked through for themselves. That is originality. "

But that isn't necessarily the purpose of A Levels. A Levels measure how well people can study and deploy the skills that the A level teaches. If someone can simultaneously be original (as you say, original to the standards of being 17) while answering the question that was asked using the skills and techniques they are expected to display (which are the assessment criteria) then brilliant, and they'll get good marks (one hopes). But if they essentially answer the question that wasn't there ("write a really good essay on the topic of your choice") without showing the skills being tested, they won't.

If Einstein had submitted one of his Annus Mirabilis papers as A Level Physics course work, he'd have failed. And that would have been entirely reasonable.

Yes, I think that's exactly the proble tokyo. So I did wonder if this student perhaps handed in something that she got a bit carried away with, which actually didn't fit the brief? It's quite easy to do if you're an enthusiastic student, but unfortunately it doesn't really get rewarded, not least because what feels very new and brilliant to the student may not seem so to the examiner.

I do think it's a real shame, though. There should be room for some excitement about the subject at A-Level, and too often I think there just isn't.

"There should be room for some excitement about the subject at A-Level, and too often I think there just isn't."

Indeed. That's one of the problems with grade inflation. When I went to University around the time of the Longest Suicide Note In History, typical offers for competitive courses at what are now Russell Group universities were BBC, and if you missed by a grade they'd rather haggle with you than take from clearing someone they hadn't interviewed. There were no AS levels and almost no course work. So the lower sixth was a chance to actually study the subject in a broad sense, and the upper sixth simply didn't have the pressure on it, as you only needed to get some Bs and Cs.

I got AABC in response to an offer of BCC on a course that today asks for AAB. My OH got BCD (plus an S1) in response to an offer of BCC on a course that today asks for AAA (moving to A*AA). Autre temps, autre mores.

Whooaa - just seen all these replies.

I'm not a fan of coursework either - would prefer just exams as a more realistic test of ability/knowledge - and dd did very well in the exams, with A grades in all of them.

But I'm confused about what is and isn't allowed for coursework - at GCSE history, the teacher certainly did help with re-drafting the work. Don't know if this is right or wrong, but that's what happened.

Then it didn't happen with AS-level, probably shouldn't, but do you know any parent who would not help their child out if they thought there was a need and they could?
Yes, unfortunate for those who don't have help at home, but ultimately if it's your child, do you not help them develop as much as you can, and work with the system that's in place?

I don't mean do the whole thing for her, that would be wrong, and no help at all when she goes to uni, or sits exams, but I fail to see what the problem is with looking at what she's doing, asking relevant questions, making suggestions etc.

I wish now I'd just looked through her coursework before she handed in the final version.

I thought Imogen Stubbs article in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago was very telling - it was on the very subject of how A'level English is more about ticking boxes, almost, than original thought and interpretation, and how reading around the subject doesn't carry weight any more.

We will ask for a re-mark if that's possible.

cherry, I did AS Level a few years ago, but certainly back then, there were different rules for GCSE and A-Level.

The thing is, technically, it is wrong for you to get involved. I think that's horribly difficult - hell, when my little brother was doing A-Level I was itching to get involved when I could see him going off the tracks!

Can I ask: would you be sure of knowing how to recognize what she'd done wrong? Lots of people on this board talk about wanting to help their children write personal statements, and very often university admissions tutors post saying how badly the parents misjudge what should be written. It might be the same here.

I hope you can get her back on track (given her other grades, I'm sure you can). It is very common that students don't understand the parameters or don't answer the question - you can't just write a brilliant essay (sadly).

Hi Dragon,

No, I can't be sure I'd recognise what she'd done wrong - but I could probably help her tidy it up a bit - and encourage her to get a breakdown of the criteria so she knows what she's aiming at. The system allows one draft overseen by the teacher apparently.

She now has the marks - 4 marks off a B - but would really need an A for it to make a difference, so is planning to re-do and re-submit.

Agree with all who question the point of coursework if it's possible to re-do and improve A'level grades this way, but, hey, that's the present system and I'm afraid I'm not going to ignore it in such a competitive environment. I don't think it's right though.

Oh good - if she's only a few marks off a B I'm sure she can pull it up to a good A, given her other marks.

It is an unrewarding system, I think - not easy for her or for you. I only asked my question because it seems there's a very narrow line for parents to walk: don't get involved and perhaps the student is disadvantaged because other parents do help their children, vs. do get involved, and perhaps advertise to examiners/ university admissions that the student isn't entirely working on his or her own.

I hope she bounces back from this, and gets the results she deserves.

Thanks all - and for the interview warning, Pixie.

She's not 100% certain that she will try for Oxford, and her other potential first choice doesn't carry out interviews, just goes on grades and application. It wouldn't be to read English Literature, but of course she still wants to aim for an A* in all of them.

Where does it say that about the A* Pixie? I've certainly read that reits do count towards it for OCR.

AS re-sits definitely do count towards A. I can think of at least two of our students who achieved A this summer, but only got the A that's necessary at AS after taking a January re-sit. (This is in English Literature.)

Pixie's right. A*s are only awarded at A2, and can't be issued on re-sits for A2 modules....

It is a bad message to give to your child that her best is not good enough.

You can use any resits to count to an A and ou do not need an A at AS for it, merely an A overall, which means that scoring anything higher than a B at AS is overkill in terms of getting an A.

Source

I'm genuinely baffled at all the parents saying to help your child is tantamount to doing the work for her. How does anyone learn? By doing. And how do they know what to do? By imitating. We coach our kids to learn to walk and talk, play nicely etc when they are small by demonstrating. Why not continue this coaching? If a child or teenager is off-track and you know it, how can it be wrong for you to set them back on track? That's teaching. That's how they learn, isn't it? A teacher who doesn't help them redraft to get a better grade isn't teaching, they're coasting.

realitychick, i don't feel helping your child with a subject is the same as helping your child with assessed work. At that point, the teaching and help is supposed to be something they can apply themselves, isn't it? [clueless]

realitychick, the time to help your time is not when they are completing assessed work

this is handed in on the assumption that it is their own work

so if you are helping them do it, you are basically encouraging them to lie

the time for teaching them to write essays is the years and months and weeks before they start the assessed work

Have to say I am beginning to understand why so many students are shocked when they are hauled up for plagiarism: they don't seem to realise that it is morally wrong to try to get a better grade by using somebody else's work.

" If a child or teenager is off-track and you know it, how can it be wrong for you to set them back on track? That's teaching."

Indeed. A running coach might cycle alongside Paula Radcliffe in training, encouraging, teaching, coaching. He doesn't get to do that in the London Marathon.

Same for exams. If you want to work with your child, great: there are 51 weeks of the year to do so. Teachers are doing that too. But the idea of an exam is to see what they can do on their own.

Anyway, this is all moot now. There's now no home-done coursework in most subjects, replaced with (exam conditions) controlled assessments.

DC currently struggling ( as he did last year ) with OCR Chemistry coursework . ( 15% of grade )
Seems the teachers are learning alongside the students - last year it was thought that every student had to be doing a different subject .
This was problematical as some subjects are perceived to be more difficult to tackle than others . ( and DS spent hours after school in lab because of problems with practical element ).
But this year it's been discovered that students can do same topics .

Is that A level gingeroots? It sounds as if the teachers haven't a clue - why didn't they just check with the exam board whether pupils could do the same assessment? DD2 is doing OCR Chemistry A level and she didn't need any extra time at all for the AS practicals it was all done within lessons.

At the moment she is learning how to do the longer practicals for A2 and they won't do any assessed ones for a while (I think that ties in with the theme of this thread - learning before assessment). I think I'd just want a bit of reassurance from your DCs teacher about how the practical element is taught especially as they are finding it difficult.

webwiz ,thanks ,yes it is A level .
Dc struggled last year ( in year 13 ,he is currently repeating yr 13 )with the practicals and the coursework .
I really couldn't follow what the problem was with the practicals - something about the chemicals not reacting .
There was talk of perhaps the chemicals were old ...
But he spent ages after school - to the detriment of other things I think .
The coursework was tricky because it now emerges that the subject was one were it 's a struggle to find much to comment on .
I'm not sure it's worth talking to the school - it's recently been Academised and they seem stressed and worked to death .
With DC doing sciences I find it hard to know what questions to ask ,or understand the answers .
Aaargh ,sorry ,crap mother emoticon !