Are all good state secondary schools faith oriented?

[MamiLove]

Please mumsnetters: is there any good state secondary school in London that are not religious?

Forgive my grammar, I'm Spanish

No.

But how do people tolerate that? So I have to be awful rich or willing to brainwash my kid embrace their faith in order to give her a good education?

And also, why are they mainly all catholic schools?

Oh, I desperately need to understand the system!

Mami, mising the point.

I'm just angry. I think faith schools should be an option, not the only option, for those of us who can't afford sending our DC to independent schools.

I'm new in the UK, so I don't understand how things work here. Maybe... I hope I'm wrong.

Where I live, one faith school is quite good, the other (secondary) is somewhere that lots of people don't want to send their children. The best school is secular (small s, as all schools in the UK, except of other faiths should be broadly christian).

Sorry but as you are Spanish, you have to accept the UK doesn't work like Spain. Just as I would if I moved to Spain or France or where-ever.

Not all good schools are faith schools. In some areas it might seem that they are, but in other areas faith schools aren't that great. Not all faith schools are catholic. Not all good faith schools are catholic.

Faith schools can sometimes seem better because: more pushy parents can play the system to get their kids into faith schools; and faith schools tend to have a strong ethos, and a strong ethos helps with school behaviour etc.

I hope this helps.

mummytime - school behaviour doesn't start at 11 though.
If you put your child into a catholic primary (these are the only schools I have experience of), then the ethos and the discipline necessary for children so that they can learn starts when they are 4.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen in other schools, just that listening to parents and teachers recounting their experiences, they always seem to come back and say that the children in the catholic schools are better behaved.

Yes! I am aware of some fantastic non faith schools and some pretty ropey faith ones. In particular I'm thinking of two Catholic Schools I know in two different parts of London where the behaviour was appalling, so Catholic doesn't always equal good behaviour! It very much depends on the area you are in.

My daughter's school has regular assemblies but they are not religious ones- no praying or singing.
So, yes, there are good state seconadary schools which are not religious!

In general, the reason faith schools get better results is not because they have significantly better teachers or teaching practices. It's not even because the religious ethos of the school inculcates better behaviour. It's because the intake of children is skewed.

It's skewed towards: people who genuinely practise that faith (in general, people who are committed to a religion are likely to be able to support and commit to their children, and their children's education, too); people who are not particularly religious but have done enough research into schools to start attending church early enough to get their children in (again, a group of people who not only care about their children's education but are prepared to invest time and energy in securing it); and people who have manipulated the system in some other way to get their children in (again, people who care about schooling enough to plan for it).

It's iniquitous. There's no justifiable religious reason for any but the most devoutly religious people to need segregated education. It's divisive and gets me really angry.

Ours is and it isn't a faith school. Not in London though. Sorry.

I understand that things work different in every country (Spanish state education system is, IMO, even worse), but that won't stop me from asking questions, being critic and want the best for my child.

For those of you who mentioned good schools that are not faith oriented... I want names, please!

I see that this is a largely controversial topic. I also asked myself the question if I could put up with a little brainwashing, but I think I'd rather leave my job and homeschool DD. IT's not that I think she'd turn up to be a fanatic, but I seriously think most religious, especially catholic, are enormously misogynist (and I know what I'm talking about, Spain is predominantly catholic). Even if it's just blah-blah-blah, something of that will invariably stay in my child's brain.

You cannot use all and never to describe schools. There is a range in all categories.

I have worked in dreadful CofE school (in fact, I walked out after six days, it was that bad). However, as a group, they are probably above-average.

You have to ask yourself whether being a faith school causes them to be better, or if it is something else. Personally, I believe a faith-based ethos does raise standards for a variety of reasons, mainly valuing one another and the school environment.

If a school were to drop their faith ethos, I think there would be a steady decline over a few years.

Yes, there are decent London schools that are not religious. But the popular and successful faith schools have very stringent admissions criteria which make it difficult for less motivated parents to get their children places in these schools.

Last year my daughter applied for a non-faith aptitude place in a highly-regarded inner-London church secondary school, so I saw a copy of all the church forms in our admission pack. This school required a mimimum of five years detailed signed evidence of church attendance by both parents and child, plus details of all additional participation in church activities. This definitely favours applicants with time, organisation and a settled family background. It would be pretty hard, say, for a recent immigrant to get a place, or someone who has moved around London a lot, or someone who works Sunday shifts etc. I don't mean that any of these people are less religious, but I do think the particular questions and requirements of the admissions form favour a certain type of motivated and committed group. And I would say that this is probably why the schools get better results, rather than anything inherently religious in the character of the school.

Fortismere and Graveney are non-faith and famously good. And there are lots of others.
Habadasher Aske's in Lewisham is excellent, though it has a weird set of entrance criteria.
Mossbourne has fantastic results, though isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Then there are the grammars - there are very few areas of London where there isn't a grammar school.

I think there are lots more, but I'm not familiar with the whole of London.

Henrietta Barnet also is good I believe but I don't know the criteria.

Henrietta Barnet is a selective grammer. Hugely competitive to get into. But if your daughter were to sit the tests and get in, then she would be the sort of girl who would enjoy the school. However from the point of view of this discussion a "skewed intake"

where abouts are you? have you settled in London? Are you willing to move to the suburbs? do you want selective or comprehensive education?

dont mean to be funny but you need to be clear about what you want and what you are prepared to do to get it.