Is this a normal level of violence for primary?

[BiffAndChipAndKipperToo]

What, if any, level of violence has your primary school child experienced in Scotland? I'm trying to understand whether our school is actually doing enough or if this is just completely normal.

I'm aware that violence is a growing problem in Scottish schools but I hear mixed reports. I know some teachers and children who are regularly hurt. I also know parents who don't know of any violence in their school and are horrified by what's happened to my DC.

I have 2 DC in what is considered a nice school in a fairly affluent area. P6 and P3.

My P6 has been hurt by the same child every year since starting school. Ranging from hitting, kicking, pushing in the earlier years to pulling out clumps of hair, trying to kick DC down the stairs, knocking DC over and dragging them round the room or playground. Death threats too, where several members of staff felt the need to step in and physically seperate the children.

Initially, most children were on the receiving end but it became a lot more targeted in the last few years. There are some specific situations which I am particularly concerned about and as the child has got older and bigger, I am more worried.

My P3 has been hit, kicked and pinched by multiple children since starting school. Nothing that has particularly phased them and mostly things that I almost expect from small, disregulated children experiencing a lot of change.

I know this isnt unuque to our school but is this common across Scottish primaries?

I'm reluctant to move a P6 from a solid group of friends so close to high school, especially if the next school will be the same. Moving is definitely on the table though.

IME it is common. Both my children were punched in the face in primary and the school did nothing about it. I had words with the other children and the parents about it and got apologies and it never happened again.

I know many other parents who said their kids were affected by this kind of behaviour too but didn't speak up because they were worried it would cause problems.

IF no one speaks up and it's hidden they will do less than they already do. Make sure you file a formal complaint so it's registered as an issue with the school and its seen on their stats.

I’m not in Scotland but I was a teacher for many years.

usually the situation is that there will be a specific child who is frequently violent. The children in that class will see and experience violence fairly regularly until and unless either the child gets a place in special school or significant support both of which take a lot of paperwork and time to get.

outside of that situation it’s usually hitting/biting in reception and then rough play going too far with boys.

so depends if your child is in a class with a child who has significant needs which are not met basically.

Wow this is outrageous. Are the school.not doing anything about it?

I'm afraid, from my experience as a teacher, it's all too common. We'd report incidents to the HT but her hands were tied because the LA will back parents (of offenders) before staff. So we'd have violent kids saying "I can do whatever I want and you can't do anything about it" - sadly that was the truth as out LA would do absolutely anything to avoid exclusions.

The only time anything was done was when a parent threatened to go to the police and the press.

It's a lose lose situation and one of the main reasons Scottish education is going down the pan.

My kids are a bit older now (secondary) however at Primary my DD was regularly evacuated from the class due to a chair throwing child. DS seemed to have less violence in his class. Fortunately neither of them were directly targeted.
In high school DS had a phase where there was problems in the PE changing rooms. The school did nothing. So DH and I texted some of the kids parents directly and asked if they were also having problems in the changing rooms ( knowing that actually it was their kids that were causing the problems) and it stopped. But that was easier as 1. we knew the families involved and has their phone numbers from school parties in primary school/football. and 2. it wasn't malicious really, it was just boys being too boisterous, and not understanding that what is 'harmless' fun for them isn't fun when you are on the receiving end of it.

My experience as a parent.

A few points:

• The head and teachers have little powers to do anything. They understand your frustrations but are trapped in between parents with understandable concerns and council education departments who have been told by the Scottish government that admitting that violence is a thing at their school = a failure.
• schools have a duty to safeguard your child. Always approach the school from that perspective. “ What are you doing to ensure my child is kept safe? Do you think it’s acceptable that my child was punched today? What steps have you taken to ensure it never happens again? Do you think these steps will work?” These are the questions you need to ask.
• schools should be recording all bullying incidents in SEEMIS, a Scottish government reporting portal. Schools will be reluctant to do this because it flags their school as having a violence problem. Make sure they do this as it shows you won’t be fobbed off and that you are aware of the system. They are more likely to do all they can if you can show you would be bullshitted.
• The police are fairly powerless because no under 25 can face any real consequences for their actions any more. But saying you’ve reported it to the police and want it recorded as an assault again shows you won’t be fobbed off. At primary age this isn’t such a thing as the age of criminal responsibility is I believe 12, but say you are consulting the police anyway.
• Threats to get the press and any local politicians involved is usually the most effective way to get action. Find out which politicians in your local area are most interested and actively in this area by scanning the local press for violence in schools stories and email their constituency office. If you find a good politician this can be an incredibly effective way for sorting this issue.
• ultimately the Scottish public service ombudsman ought to be able to act if the school consistently fail to safeguard your child. This is a long road though, no immediate results.

good luck OP.

Dc2 was punched in the face in p2. Her nose bled as a result which is the only reason I found out about it. The child responsible did apologise. His parents were mortified.

No one has ever hit dc1 at school. He is tall, sporty and a rather vicious kickboxer (been training since p3). That may or may not be related.

I’m not in Scotland but I was a TA for nearly 15 years in the UK and honestly, some of the behaviour now is dire. You wouldn’t believe it.
There have always been the odd problematic child in a class but now, you’re dealing with numerous children with behavioural issues in each and every class pretty much.
I left a few years back because I was sick and tired of being kicked, punched, sworn at etc and this was from children as young as 4 or 5 in reception! Together with next to no support from SLT and I’d had enough, oh and parents who threaten you if you dare to discipline their child! There’s a reason why school staff are leaving in droves.

I think the first sounds like bullying and the second sounds maybe more like too many excitable children too close together with too few repercussions for bad behaviour?

To answer specifically, I'm in Edinburgh and there's been clusters of violence in the primary school. My son was punched in the face in P1 but there were massive repercussions and that never happened again. There have been a few fights that I've heard about and some playground stuff with playing getting out of hand. My daughter was the victim (twice) of some bullying with regards to her religion that got physical but I went in hard on that one and would not have hesitated to go to the police but it stopped and she's been okay since.

I know my friend's child is the person doing the violence sometimes - particularly when he was younger he just couldn't control himself and the school couldn't either. Eventually he was put on a reduced timetable and excluded often and they're just limping along. It's a nightmare for everyone.

Your first child needs to be protected and I would worry about this escalating. Pushing down stairs, dragging him around, etc... that's not normal or acceptable.

School's hands are somewhat tied - when my daughter was being bullied they suggested that 'she' sit out her break times in the nurture room or whatever it's called now. I thought my husband was going to lose his mind at that point - they were inherently excluding her because she was a victim. Horrible policy.

Same here. We were offered a move to another council school of our choice for our child due to them being repeatedly assaulted. They were the victim, not the perpetrator! Shr just wants to go to school with her friends and learn in safety. It was such a shit show we ended up moving to private.

Not Scotland, but my son has had an awful time since reception, but especially last year (year 4) when they were put back in the same class, all from one child.

I kept a list of incidents and dates last year as it got so bad. My son was hit twice, thrown to the ground, kicked in the stomach, pushed face first into a chair, had things thrown at him and had personal belongings destroyed. The school was fucking useless. I want to move my son but he’s got an absolutely lovely group of friends.

I’ve been told that the child is now medicated and there wasn’t a single incident in the last term of year 4. They’re in separate classes again this year, but I had to fight for that.

I worked in Edinburgh primary school until 6 years ago. The violence was escalating badly and colleagues who still work there say it’s ten times worse now. The attacks on staff, both verbal and physical are appalling. Staff aren’t allowed to do anything about it, if you try and physically restrain a child whilst they’re battering another person or child, you’ll end up going through the disciplinary process for your trouble.

Thank you all for some really helpful advice. I'm sorry that so many children have experienced this.

School have always been very sorry, full of all the right words but nothing has ever made a difference. The other child has a very different life to ours and speaking to the parent is not an option. I don't think that the child has any control over their actions either.

We have always taken the approach of "what are you doing to keep our child safe?" as we know they can't discuss specific details about the other child. We mostly just get platitudes back, but after the most serious incident, we all agreed a detailed safety plan. Much of that is now ignored with the excuse of staffing cuts preventing effective supervision. Thankfully, they have a wonderful and proactive teacher, so the classroom is currently as safe as it can be.

For a long time, the school considered the 2 children to be friends without realising that our child was actually just too scared to say no. They became isolated from everyone else as a result, which we flagged.

We will be asking for evidence that everything has been recorded on SEEMIS and what our escalation route should be. (I know exactly what it is, but they need to know that is how seriously we will be taking this).

And yes, I agree that DC2 is experiencing a bit of overly boisterous behaviour and it isn't targeted or even a huge concern. It's just really sad that it is the norm.

Although the school won’t tell you about the other child’s background it is relevant. If the violent child is in care the Scottish government have put policies in place that mean that they cannot be kept in at break, moved classes, moved schools etc without their foster carer’s express permission which is what often leads to the victim having to be isolated instead. More backward policies introduced without properly being thought through.

Honestly, (personal opinion) the best thing you can do is teach your child some
skills in hitting back.

my dc was being hit and tackled aggressively in PE and as a result we all started Martial Arts classes together.

I discussed with him the situation and basically it was always happening while they were out doing PE and the teacher was focused elsewhere.

so I said to him that he wasn’t to hit first, but if they hurt him he had carte Blanche to hurt them back.

it stopped pretty quickly.

From my experience as a teacher, the experience of your eldest is exceptional.

I find most serious violence in schools not to be targeted. Children who have been hurt have been in the crossfire, rather than targeted and I find a lot more damage is done to the resources and room than people. Otherwise, a bit of a hot head or disagreement could lead to a push or slap, but no bodily harm inflicted. This sounds more like your younger child’s experience?

In 10 years I have had 1 child deliberately target and inflict pain on others repeatedly. GIRFEC backed that child entirely, ignoring the rest of the class living in fear of that child. Nobody was “getting it right” for them. This behaviour is exceptional and it sounds like what your eldest is facing.

I would make formal complaints about it not being dealt with. As others have said, keep a log. Look at the SHANARRI wheel and make clear all the things that are missing for YOUR child in this situation (for a start, they are certainly not safe!)

This thread is so sad, I don't think any child should be exposed to repeated violence from their peers.

Many years ago, DS was singled out by one DC and hurt repeatedly... luckily he could move class but at the time, the schools first response was head in the sand. How can violence ever be ok and tolerated?

I’m a primary teacher and I’ve never seen the level of violence before that we have now. Since August I have had one particular
child who has assaulted multiple people including me and another adult. When I ask for help I’m told they have trauma and I shouldn’t be hard on them. Problem is that they are creating trauma for everyone else. Imagine seeing a child in your class attack a member of staff and be back in class in under 10 minutes with no apparent consequences.

My own DC have trained in martial arts since they were little and have never been assaulted at school. They do take their competition medals in and their classmates all know that they train. Not sure if that’s why or their school has better strategies.

It’s the ‘no apparent consequences’ that I have a big issue with. The class has to see that there are consequences to lashing out in order to nip any thoughts of violence in other classmates in the bud. But the ‘consequences’ in my kids primary was hot chocolate and cosy chats with the head. Hardly a deterrent!

This, drove me insane that I had to sit with violent little thugs who knew EXACTLY how to manipulate SLT munch popcorn and slurp hot chocolate whilst the poor kids they’d traumatised all week got nothing.

We occasionally have children who demonstrate similar levels of violence. They have internal and external exclusions, occasionally are permanently excluded. We are 2 form entry so will move children to another class if the issue is continued. We work closely with Behaviour Support and CAMHS to get help for those children. Parents know we do not tolerate any form of violence or bullying.

There was only one permanent exclusion in the whole of Scotland in 2022/23. This is part of the issue. Kids are never removed from school no matter what they do so they think they’re invincible- and they are.