School and Scottish Universities

[Hectorsmother]

I am rather new to all of this and from a few snatches of conversation I have heard is it true that Scottish universities penalise private school children in some unknown matrix and to circumvent this parents move their kids out of Private school to public school in the last 3 years?

Sorry if I have gotten the whole thing jumbled, I am just curious about this and wonder about the reasoning.

You miss the point - widening access is about making the application process unlevel in order to compensate for disparities that exist before that stage. It means those who have suffered disadvantage can get in with lower grades. The downside of that is if those lower grades represent differences in skill then they will struggle - which is why some universities start requiring attendance at summer programmes for widening access participants.

I’m not saying anyone on here is doing this- but I have seen both on here and in RL that some people are very keen not to surrender any of their privilege. And talking about long term solutions is a good way to kick the problem down the road…..

How would you level the playing field? I am genuinely keen to hear differing ideas of how to tackle the inequalities now so it isn't kicked down the road.

I got into Uni many years ago from a deprived background and would not have liked to have got in through other than strictly on merit
I would like to think my DC got there on merit but acknowledge we moved to catchment of a very good school and they had other advantages due to our income
So I understand it is very difficult

100%. We moved our kids to private due to endless violence and disruption in their local supposedly excellent state school. The biggest difference is that all of the lesson time is used to teach. It’s shocking the difference behaviour makes and it is affecting every type of stare school now throughout Scotland. This research shows the impact of poor behaviour. Private schools don’t have to deal with this.

www.gov.scot/publications/behaviour-scottish-schools-research-report-2023/pages/8/

We did similar for eldest DD during secondary school. Not that there was endless violence (although some) she was in a very disruptive class with nasty behaviors. Poor teachers totally over stretched trying to manage impact of home issues on kids. And this was in an affluent area.DD is quite dyslexic so trying to study in that environment was a huge strain and making her very depressed. We could just about afford to send her privately so did. Lots of parents won't be in that position.

I really would prefer Scottish Government to put more money into schools, and if they have to charge Scottish students to fund it I think that would be preferable. The English loan is more like a graduate tax and something like that could work in Scotland. That said, I can't see SNP committing to that ever.

It is not just money though. It is also schools inability to respond to violence and their push to mainstream children with ASN regardless of the cost to that child and others in the school. It means loads of specialist schools and pupil referral units have been closed during the SNPs reign so there is now nowhere that can offer the specialist input many of these children require.

I remember a Holyrood debate on ‘inclusion’ a few years ago. One SNP MSP spoke of how children from a specialist school joined his school, when he was a teacher, for some lessons accompanied by their support person and how wonderful this was. But the ‘inclusion’ the government has implemented is nothing like that - it is throw the children into mainstream classes full time and expect them and the teachers to cope without any extra support.

I wouldn't disagree @CapeGooseberry . But money would help pay for more pupil support, and increase teachers wages and development.

It is not more pupil support that is needed though. For many it is a specialist setting so they get the correct input rather than support with the wrong input,

we’re sadly lacking in diverse options all across the uk, neither labour nor the snp have any interest in setting up and supporting smaller settings, as the cost per head is higher.

for quite a significant proportion of kids the huge secondaries or primaries with 30 plus in the class are utterly overwhelming in many respects and no amount of teaching resource will get the best outcomes.

but I see no evidence govt wants the best for any individual kid, they want justifiable good enough outcomes, delivered for for less money that they can use to sling mud at other parties.

I’d really like increased funding in education to focus on reopening PRUs and specialist schools. If kids are disrupting the learning of others they shouldn’t be taught in mainstream. The latest report in violence in schools talks of how the violence is so bad it brings a tense, oppressive atmosphere to schools. We as adults wouldn’t work in a tense, oppressive atmosphere so why are we expecting our children to do so.

DS went to private school and started uni last year. From what I observed of his private school cohort, those who got 5 As at Higher seemed to get offers from most of their Scottish universities of choice including St Andrews, Glasgow and Strathclyde.

Many universities are doing this, it's called contextual grades. So maybe entry
requirements are AAB but for a student who meets contextual requirements they get an offer of ABB perhaps (depending on how many criteria they meet)if they're from a particular postcode (with higher deprivation or lower rates going to uni).
They use the same system across most universities (there are two I've seen) and run it through a system.
They also look at whether you're estranged,
care experienced or looked after, some
universities consider disability, refugee status. It just gives lower requirements based on the fact they will have had more disruptive education and will have had less access to resources (maybe they didn't have computers at home, textbooks etc) or they had disruptive family lives so they had to focus on that over school, it just levels the field so they can still aspire to good universities.

Not just the children - adults (teachers) are expected to work in that environment. It is interesting to see now the teachers unions are getting on board with the issues with mainstreaming, lack of appropriate ASN placements etc that they are getting a lot more traction than parents ever did.

There are areas of England where exclusion is certainly an option and various external educational units depending on severity of behaviour exist. Scotland has nothing and bad behaviour and disruption are tolerated as the schools have no option..

If only the MSPs - in particular the education secretary - were obliged to spend a week in various schools - the worst performing ones - and see what their policies have done. Even better, mandate the filming of any classroom with violent pupils!

These adjusted categories don’t ‘level the field’. They exclude many Scottish students who don’t fall into the right postcode etc from Scottish universities due to the fee cap.

That needs to be addressed. Allow these students to borrow to fund or pay fees or lose them - and their future tax revenues across the Border or overseas.

@EvelynBeatrice i do completely agree there are more options in England - also EHCPs and academic schools for autistic kids that can’t cope in mainstream, but, firstly labour are looking to dismantle a lot of this due to expense, and, there is still a lack of options and these schools are over subscribed, even though they exist.

But it has nothing to do with the fees? They still pay the same fees, it doesn't exclude Scottish students anymore than their students. If you meet the requirements for contextual offer then you get it, if you don't then you get the normal entry requirements. Universities across the UK are doing this and they all use the same postcode algorithm to do, some also count FSM (some unis do not they have control mostly over what criteria they pick, but they all tend to do postcode of home/school, care, estrangement, other extenuating circumstances). Also many universities lower offer if in y12 you do programs with the university, which you have to apply for early and have good GCSEs for them, they often lower your grades more than contextual offers do. Plus universities are still going to make sure you have good entry requirements to enter and be able to do the course even if ti's contextual (it often only lowers it by one or two grades). Universities across the UK have been doing this for the last few years, and I doubt it will change.

It excludes students because there is a cap on numbers. The Scottish Government only fund so many places and the universities don’t lobby for more Scottish students as they are loss-making. English students pay their way so universities can expand to take more.

The problem with the widening access criteria is things like postcode are not good measures of deprivation. The majority of deprived students don’t live in ‘deprived’ postcodes as where housing density is a bit lower the postcodes cover larger areas with mixed housing types.

Yes but that cap exists with or without contextual offers. Universities are doing this in England with EU and international students. I've seen Scottish universities in clearing only advertising for EU and international students, so not even English students are enough. Yes there are slight issues with the postcode use but that's why they try to mitigate against it, so they also ask about FSM and Pupil Premium. They also try to do both school and home as well (plus they use the same as every other university it's not perfect, but it's something). They also have other criteria for contextual offers that I already said and that also means they take those who are disadvantaged: care experienced or looked after, estranged, poverty, disability, anything else (you just need references and to fill in a form for other circumstances). This is happening all over, I get there are only a certain amount of places for Scottish students but the contextual offers will go to Scottish students as well as others. They will still be meeting the quota of Scottish students and English students.

As an example

Scottish students - 100 students, 60 places funded, 30 go to contextual students, 30 to other students, 40 students without places.

English students - 100 students, no cap on places, 30 go to contextual students, 70 places go to other students,

Or the the case of Law in Edinburgh a couple of years ago:

Scottish students - 100 places funded, 100 go to contextual students, 0 to other students.

I get that but that would happen with or without contextual offers is my point. The funding issue is about the government, and there's nothing wrong with these students getting contextual offers. Take your example:

100 Scottish students - 60 places funded by government - 60 places given to non-contextual students. There are still 40 students not going. Whether or they split it between contextual or non-contextual doesn't matter. With the English example the reason it works is because all 100 places are funded (by students tuition fees) so they can give more offers (for contextual students or for no contextual students). The issue isn't the contextual offers themselves, but the funding and the fact that the universities need more money, so take English students over Scottish ones. Just like the English universities are taking international students over English ones (Scottish unis are also doing this).

It does. The universities limit the number of Scottish funded students for financial reasons. They get more fees from others. If such Scottish places as there are are restricted to those students with protected characteristics or postcodes, it automatically excludes those without. These students are not currently able to opt to pay the fees so must leave the country and pay fees or reconcile themselves to an inferior degree course.

I think contextual offers can be a good thing, though I disagree with how various criteria are applied as many exclude more of those they seek to advantage than they include. The problem is how that translates into offers though. I think it should be something like a scoring system where everyone (contextual and noncontexual) are assessed and contextual students are given extra points. That would mean all students are assessed against each other. At the moment there are times when non contextual students are not considered at all and I think that is wrong.

Scottish universities don’t take English students over Scottish ones. They take however many Scottish students they are funded to take and then fill up the lecture hall with as many English and International students as they can.